BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

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TuckerMix
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BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Tue May 24, 2011 3:43 am

Nuendo 5.1.1
mac OSX 10.6.7
RME 2.91

I've found that plugin delay compensation is not working at multiple buffer sizes / sample rates. Plugin delay is incorrect, is not sample accurate, thus null tests fail, parallel mixing results in comb filtering.

-make two identical tracks (with same source audio)
-flip phase of one track using mixer phase button
-put a plugin on one of the tracks
-set said plugin to DRY (so it just passes unprocessed audio but still goes thru the plugin buffer)
-listen... tracks should cancel out to silence

-try at different hardware buffer settings
-try at different sample rate settings

Of all buffer and sample rate variations I was able to find 7 combinations that failed this null test.


Can anyone reproduce?
Last edited by TuckerMix on Wed May 25, 2011 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

twelvetwelve
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by twelvetwelve » Tue May 24, 2011 10:41 pm

Difficult test to do. Which plug-ins? Some plug-ins that say dry are not in fact passing the signal straight through unaffected.

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 12:08 am

Try a steinberg plugin with wet/dry.

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by twelvetwelve » Wed May 25, 2011 2:02 am

Can't reproduce.

- Create 2 mono audio tracks feeding to two mono groups (just to be sure we're getting the end of the signal chain post inserts on the audio tracks)
- Put an audio file on each track (sine tone is easy)
- Flip the phase on group channel 2
---> Silence at the output
- Insert a plug-on on audio track 2 (let's try the mono delay or reverb) and set the mix ratio to 100% dry
---> Silence at the output

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 2:13 am

You have try several sample rates and bit depths. I tried EVERY combination and found 7 cases where this test failed.

The following FAILED...

Buffer | Sample Rate
---------------------------
128 @ 96
192 @ 192
512 @ 48, 192
768 @ 48
1024 @ 96
2048 @ 192

Woodcrest Studio

Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by Woodcrest Studio » Wed May 25, 2011 5:32 am

I have noticed this a while ago.... I guess I should have posted about it. :?

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 5:47 am

YES! Nuendo has always touted sample accuracy... unfortunately something went wrong and its been broken for a while. I know others that can also repro this.

This is a major issue for me as I ofter paralel mix. I would love an ETA on the fix? :-P

Can anyone at Steinberg repro / comment?

Thanks much
Last edited by TuckerMix on Wed May 25, 2011 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by twelvetwelve » Wed May 25, 2011 7:58 am

I tried your test with the following:

128 @ 96
512 @ 48
1024 @ 96

Still can't reproduce here.

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 8:18 am

Try them all.

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Fredo
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by Fredo » Wed May 25, 2011 8:30 am

TuckerMix wrote:Try them all.
Is there a reason why you don't tell us which plugins, at which SR causes problems?

Fredo

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by twelvetwelve » Wed May 25, 2011 10:31 am

TuckerMix wrote:Try them all.
My audio card won't do all of those buffer settings and/or sample rates - my time in the day won't allow it either ;)

I tried the ones I could (you're welcome) and your repro didn't work.

Either provide more detailed instructions as to an EXACT repro (plug-in, audio hardware, OS configuration etc) or try a different audio card on your system (or another system altogether).

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 3:23 pm

...from above...

The following FAILED...

Buffer | Sample Rate
---------------------------
128 @ 96
192 @ 192
512 @ 48, 192
768 @ 48
1024 @ 96
2048 @ 192
TuckerMix
Junior Member

This issue may not have an EXACT repro.
I will repro again and let you know which plugin.
Last edited by TuckerMix on Wed May 25, 2011 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 4:13 pm

Just reproduced the issue...

OSX 10.6.7 (Fresh Install)
Nuendo 5.1.1
RME (2.91) dual Fireface 800 daisy chained, synced over word clock (aggregate device)

-setup session with one steinberg plugin, one UAD plugin
-check null test
-UAD plugin buffer was incorrect
-steinberg plugin buffer was correct
null test.png
(1.07 MiB) Not downloaded yet
I checked 1024 buffer size and started with 44, then changed session to 96 (didn't convert), then 176, 192, then 48. On 48k the issue was reproduced (only for the UAD plugin).

Not sure if this is a UAD bug or Nuendo bug only exhibited with UAD.
UAD only.png
(133.07 KiB) Not downloaded yet

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 6:35 pm

Here is a repro using only altiverb... I can toggle back and forth between 44.1k and 48k @ 768 buffer and see the issue come and go...
altiverb 768 @ 44k.png
(152.43 KiB) Not downloaded yet
altiverb 768 @ 48k.png
(144.62 KiB) Not downloaded yet
So perhaps this is not UAD related...

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Chewy Papadopoulos
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by Chewy Papadopoulos » Wed May 25, 2011 6:55 pm

TuckerMix wrote:Here is a repro using only altiverb... I can toggle back and forth between 44.1k and 48k @ 768 buffer and see the issue come and go...
Question: are you actually shutting down and restarting Nuendo between tests, as opposed to just toggling back and forth in an open session?

Chewy
N10x, C8, Cubasis, Halion, UAD-2s (Quad PCI, Satellite & SOLO/Laptop), Fireface 800, UR-22, MC Control, MacPro 12 core 3.46GHz, 64 Gigs RAM OS 10.14.4; MacBook Pro 4 core, 16 Gigs, OS 10.13.6

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 6:59 pm

I am not shutting down, restarting Nuendo... and I shouldn't have to.

Also note, this issue does not go away even if I restart my system. It's like the incorrect buffer is "cached" somewhere.

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Chewy Papadopoulos
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by Chewy Papadopoulos » Wed May 25, 2011 7:41 pm

TuckerMix wrote:I am not shutting down, restarting Nuendo... and I shouldn't have to.
That really depends on what you're trying to do. Basic troubleshooting protocol suggests you should.

Chewy
N10x, C8, Cubasis, Halion, UAD-2s (Quad PCI, Satellite & SOLO/Laptop), Fireface 800, UR-22, MC Control, MacPro 12 core 3.46GHz, 64 Gigs RAM OS 10.14.4; MacBook Pro 4 core, 16 Gigs, OS 10.13.6

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Fredo
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by Fredo » Wed May 25, 2011 8:07 pm

TuckerMix wrote:I am not shutting down, restarting Nuendo... and I shouldn't have to.
At least you should re-load your project.
Delay compensation is calcluated when the plugin is loaded; that is either when the project is loaded (with the plugins)or the plugin is loaded into the project. When switching sample rates the delay is not re-calculated and re-applied.

Fredo

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 8:10 pm

As I stated already, restarting the system doesn't even fix this issue thus restarting Nuendo does not fix it. Just retested and that is the case.

Restarting the DAW every time I change buffer sizes during a mix is less then desirable IMO.

Fredo, are you able to repro?
What are your thoughts on this issue?
Is it a bug?

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Fredo
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by Fredo » Wed May 25, 2011 8:24 pm

TuckerMix wrote:As I stated already, restarting the system doesn't even fix this issue thus restarting Nuendo does not fix it.

Fredo, are you able to repro?
What are your thoughts on this issue?
Is it a bug?
What crucial is, is that the project is closed before switching SR and re-opened after the SR was changed.
Any change of SR within an open project will -AFAIK-and I could be wrong- not result in a re-calculation of the latency.

Haven't got the time to repro yet, will try tomorrow.
It's hard to tell if it's a bug. The procedure is that the plugin needs to report the latency to the host, then (and only then) the host applies (if needed) compensation for it. If the problem is confirmed, then it are the engineers who need to figure out if the latency is correctly communicated to the host and/or if the latency is correctly compensated for.

Also, be sure you have two identical tracks. If one track has -for example- an extra plugin with a higher latency, then that track will be compensated for the highest reported latency.

I seem to remember vaguely some delay compensation problems with UAD plugins, but that is a very long time ago.
And knowing UAD QA, it would surprise me very much if the problem would be on their side.

Fredo

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 8:39 pm

What crucial is, is that the project is closed before switching SR and re-opened after the SR was changed.
I can only change the sample rate of the session when the session is open, so I can't really do what you are requesting.

Besides, Nuendo allows the user to change buffer sizes and change sample rates at any time. Nuendo should not allow these actions to disrupt sample accuracy and it should not be on the user to follow an specific but unstated workflow in order to maintain sample accuracy.

Given that both UAD Dreamverb and Altiverb have exhibited this issue it seems Nuendo related.

Given that the issue does not FIX itself on session reload or system restart it seems Nuendo is not re-calculation of the latency properly.
Also, be sure you have two identical tracks.
All my tracks are identical, same audio file. No other plugins are active, or loaded during this test. Just the plugin under test.

Thanks for looking into this Fredo, it been a thorn in my side for while now. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. This is a high importance issue for me as my mixing workflow often involves mixing processed and unprocessed versions of the same source.

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by twelvetwelve » Wed May 25, 2011 10:06 pm

I also have an RME but I still can not repro your issue. I would try a different system or audio card if you can and see if the problem is still there.

TuckerMix
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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Wed May 25, 2011 10:30 pm

I've been tag teaming this issue with others, there is no question it exists. If you really want to reproduce it you'll have to try every combination of sample rate & buffer setting. I'll write the steps again from my initial post...

-create 44.1 sample rate session @ 512 buffer size
-make two identical tracks (with same source audio)
-flip phase of one track using mixer phase button
-put a plugin (altiverb or UAD Dreamverb plugin) on one of the tracks
-set said plugin to DRY (so it just passes unprocessed audio but still goes thru the plugin buffer)
-master fader meter should show no signal
-repeat for every sample rate
-repeat for every buffer size

Even if you restart the system or nuendo between each test you will eventually run into this issue.

Did you see my screen shots? How can they be wrong? The master fader shows signal or it doesn't. If there are two sessions, one which shows signal in the master fader and one that doesn't and the only difference is the buffer size, there is definitely something wrong with Nuendo's handling of the PDC numbers.

The only other variable is the type of plugin, some plugins don't have the issue, others do. In my example, the steinberg VST3 mono delay did not experience the issue when the UAD plugin did. Altiverb did also. I also tested Line 6 plugins, URS plugins, SPL, Brainworks... but alas not at every SR / buffer setting, just in the same session. I loaded a bunch of plugins on a channel and saved and reloaded the session and the issue only showed up in Altiverb in one case. The other plugins continued to pass the null test.

I think the only valuable input anyone can contribute is to find a repro case on their system. But you will have to be diligent. You will have to spend the time and try every combination until you repro.

Everything else is just conjecture otherwise.

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by twelvetwelve » Thu May 26, 2011 12:32 am

TuckerMix wrote: The only other variable is the type of plugin, some plugins don't have the issue, others do. In my example, the steinberg VST3 mono delay did not experience the issue when the UAD plugin did.
I will refer you to my first post on the issue. Some plug-ins say "dry" when they are in fact not. The plug-in could absolutely have a bug where it behaves incorrectly at certain sample rates and/or buffer sizes but that should be reported to the developer of the plug-in.

Have you tried a different DAW? A different computer? A different soundcard? It could be any number of things and while the end result might appear that Nuendo is broken, the problem might actually lie elsewhere. I'll mention it again, using your repro steps I was unable to reproduce the bug and I use parallel processing all the time.

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Re: BUG: plugin delay compensation is broken

Post by TuckerMix » Thu May 26, 2011 12:47 am

using your repro steps I was unable to reproduce the bug
Did you test every buffer size and sample rate? Unless you tested EVERYTHING you didn't perform my repro steps. Again, the issue may be intermittent.
Some plug-ins say "dry" when they are in fact not
I was able to repro this issue with UAD Lexicon, Cambridge, Dreamverb, and Altiverb. They all exhibit the same behavior and I know the Lexicon passes dry.

You see the null test is mathematical. If each sample in the two tracks is identical and you sum then out of phase you get silence. I could bounce these tracks down and bit for bit compare the audio content of the files for further proof, but if I see a meter that goes down -46 dbfs and I here nothing there is a REALLY good chance the two tracks are the same.
Have you tried a different DAW
I also performed this test in Protools and Logic with the same plugin and guess what? The issue didn't occur!
A different computer? A different soundcard?
There is no need to try a different sound card or computer because this issue is occurring beween the timing of the tracks, before the audio even hits the soundcard D/A.

I think at this point it may be more beneficial to provide fact or test results in lue of speculation. If you do get a chance to perform the entire repro steps with all buffer size and all sample rate combo's it would be very useful to know your results.

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