[ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

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MattiasNYC
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[ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

I have the following issue regarding the VCA channels:

1. intermittent: VCA write enable only works on mix page, clicking it in project page does nothing. When this is a problem the visual indicator only works on mix page.

2. VCA channels miss "S" "E" "monitoring" and "rec", with "M" and "L" not working grayed out. I can in other words only control volume on the tracks that belong to the VCA and cannot toggle solo/mute/monitoring/rec etc.....

I have tried to start with preferences disabled and it doesn't help.

Anyone else seeing this? Anyone have a recommended procedure to make them appear and function the way they should?
Last edited by MattiasNYC on Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VCA issue

Post by Fredo »

Not in front of my system here, but the way VCA's are implemented in Nuendo is totaly different from the way they are are functioning in Cubase.

In Cubase they are part of the grouping functionality. In Nuendo, they do not have any grouping functionality.
So monitoring, rec an other grouping functions are abscent.
You should however be able to mute and solo the VCA channel though.
But as you said, the only thing that a VCA fder does, is controlling the volume of the faders that belong to this VCA group. And that's the way it should be. Anything else you want to "control" needs to be done through the grouping functionality.

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Re: VCA issue

Post by twelvetwelve »

I agree Lydiot. VCA implementation isn't anywhere near as nice as it could be when comparing to PT so hopefully an update in the future brings some of the much needed stuff it's missing.

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Re: VCA issue

Post by MattiasNYC »

Fredo wrote:Not in front of my system here, but the way VCA's are implemented in Nuendo is totaly different from the way they are are functioning in Cubase.

In Cubase they are part of teh grouping functionality. In Nuendo, they ado not have any grouping functionality.
So monitoring, rec an other grouping functions are abscent.
You should however be able to mute and solo the VCA channel though.
But as you said, the only thing that a VCA fder does, is controlling the volume of the faders that belong to this VCA group. And that's the way it should be. Anything else you want to "control" needs to be done through the grouping functionality.

Fredo
First of all, all of what I mentioned was visible in the VCA channels in the Nuendo 7 video on VCAs.

Secondly, why shouldn't input monitoring and record be included? Why is that "the way it should be"??? Sounds like just your opinion. I beg to differ. I'd rather have the option of having one VCA track to which all my stem tracks I record onto belong, so that I can record enable them all by just pressing record on that VCA tracks rather than having to navigate to the tracks themselves.

Thirdly, if Pro Tools does it this way, why limit functionality in Nuendo? Sounds a bit like cutting out a feature for no good reason.

And lastly: So does Mute/Solo work for you?
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Re: VCA issue

Post by Grabber »

I agree with Fredo....

I HATE how the Cubase VCA's are linked to the grouping functionality. Making you think much more than necesarry..... What else are linked, grouped to this VCA fader X etc, etc... Bound for accidents (record arm a track not intended, the clumsy selection).

A VCA should share the Mute, Solo and Fader level only IMO, and I am almost willing to buy the N5.5 + NEK to N7 + NEK upgrade only for this new (and better) VCA function.

Add in the "Advanced Project Collaboration", and I'm almost there. A couple of other things as the extended Automation feature, and multiple marker tracks etc....

PS. I am now on Cubase 8 (had to bite the bullet on the new mixer), but my number one DAW has been Nuendo from N1.6 up to N5.5 (and Cubase in paralell since SX1 up to 6.5 (my C fav)). Now trying to like C8 (its clumsy VCA implementation has been annoying me).

We need more vids and documentation on the VCA's and the "Advanced Project Collaboration"......

@Fredo - Do you think those two things will be ported over to Cubase at some point? Cubase 8.5 or 9 maybe?
$450 is a bit too much money to spend, if Cubase will inherit these "NOT POST ONLY" features.

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Re: VCA issue

Post by Grabber »

Please do NOT mix up the VCA's and the Group features function. Please ;)

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Re: VCA issue

Post by MattiasNYC »

Grabber wrote:I agree with Fredo....

I HATE how the Cubase VCA's are linked to the grouping functionality. Making you think much more than necesarry..... What else are linked, grouped to this VCA fader X etc, etc... Bound for accidents (record arm a track not intended, the clumsy selection).

A VCA should share the Mute, Solo and Fader level only IMO, and I am almost willing to buy the N5.5 + NEK to N7 + NEK upgrade only for this new (and better) VCA function.

Add in the "Advanced Project Collaboration", and I'm almost there. A couple of other things as the extended Automation feature, and multiple marker tracks etc....

PS. I am now on Cubase 8 (had to bite the bullet on the new mixer), but my number one DAW has been Nuendo from N1.6 up to N5.5 (and Cubase in paralell since SX1 up to 6.5 (my C fav)). Now trying to like C8 (its clumsy VCA implementation has been annoying me).

We need more vids and documentation on the VCA's and the "Advanced Project Collaboration"......

@Fredo - Do you think those two things will be ported over to Cubase at some point? Cubase 8.5 or 9 maybe?
$450 is a bit too much money to spend, if Cubase will inherit these "NOT POST ONLY" features.
Don't make the thread about Cubase please.

If you don't see the use in a record or input monitoring button enabling the members of a VCA then all you have to do is not click the button. There's zero loss for those that don't need it in having this implemented.
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Re: VCA issue

Post by twelvetwelve »

@ Grabber - I think you mis-understand. VCAs should be separate from the grouping functionality but they should also have some other basic functions included which other DAWs have.

For example, when using linked groups + VCAs + group channels things can get messy quite quickly with the current lack of VCA solo/mute. See https://youtu.be/cALPW8kK4Pw?t=119 as an example of solo/mute with VCA faders.

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Re: VCA issue

Post by MattiasNYC »

That's a good example - thanks likelystory.
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Re: VCA issue

Post by stingray »

Lydiot wrote:... So does Mute/Solo work for you?
AFAIK there is no mute / solo on the VCA fader channels.

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Re: VCA issue

Post by MattiasNYC »

So can someone at Steinberg confirm that Solo/Mute is not working on VCAs, and also confirm just what functionality will be added?
Fredo wrote:You should however be able to mute and solo the VCA channel though.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by twelvetwelve »

Currently VCA channels do not have solo/mute - you're not missing anything on your system. I hope this will be added though!

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Ok, so forgive me for being a bit "fussy" about this, but the implementation of VCAs in Nuendo 7 is currently BEHIND the one in Cubase 8, months and months later. To me that's a little bit disappointing.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Grabber »

For the record, I wrote that, the VCA's indeed should have mute and solo functions within the VC fader/group.
In addition to Fader level, and automation Read/Write of corse ;).
The missing functioning Mute/Solo buttons has to be a bug, and will be/has to be fixed IMO.

What I don't want, is the ability to record arm all tracks from a VCA fader/group with a single button.
I don't want to let all tracks in a VCA group be selected when clicking a single track.
Both which should reside in the regular grouping functionality (which is a combined Grouping/Linking/VCA mess in Cubase - And we do NOT want that).

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Grabber wrote:What I don't want, is the ability to record arm all tracks from a VCA fader/group with a single button.
I don't want to let all tracks in a VCA group be selected when clicking a single track.
Could you please stop confusing "linked tracks" with VCAs.

If you have tracks controlled by a VCA then pressing solo on an individual track does not solo all.
If you press solo ON THE VCA they should all solo.

Why shouldn't record be the same? If you don't want that functionality you don't have to press the button. It's exactly that simple. I don't think you fully see how VCAs work.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

Could you please stop confusing "linked tracks" with VCAs
I have the impression that it is you who wants to achieve the same thing (linking tracks) through VCA's.
It are indeed two different things. And they live happily next to each other.
Lydiot wrote:Why shouldn't record be the same? If you don't want that functionality you don't have to press the button. It's exactly that simple.
First of all, why is it a problem to do exactly that thing by linking faders/tracks in the old fashioned way?
Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing anyone using VCA faders for anything other than final mixing.
I don't think you fully see how VCAs work.
A VCA is a voltage controlled amplifier.
It offsets the voltage of the faders assigned to that VCA, thereby creating a dual layer level control.
That is the definition of a VCA, and that's how they have always worked on the traditional consoles.

For the record, I know that PT VCA's have a rec-arm function; this is not about copying functions from another DAW, but about implementing functionality with a clear vision. Which indeed results in pro and contra's.
I support the Steinbertg KISS approach very much, and as said, some things are missing at the moment.


Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Domilik »

Fredo wrote: First of all, why is it a problem to do exactly that thing by linking faders/tracks in the old fashioned way?
Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing anyone using VCA faders for anything other than final mixing.
I use the VCAs in PT always, from the very beginning in editing, just for solo/mute the parts of my session I don't want to hear atm. They are constantly mapped to my first controller-page, even if I don't mix. So for me VCAs without Solo/Mute makes less sense. And I have to say that the advertising pics I saw online let me assume, that there is solo/mute on VCAs.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

Solo/Mute isto come, no worries.

Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Fredo wrote:
Could you please stop confusing "linked tracks" with VCAs
I have the impression that it is you who wants to achieve the same thing (linking tracks) through VCA's.
It are indeed two different things. And they live happily next to each other.
I'm talking about the technical aspect of it, not the practical one. What I am proposing has absolutely nothing to do with linking, and I made that clear. "Linking" tracks to perform solo/mute/rec is no more "linking" than is adjusting levels. It'd all work the same way, which is the way it works practically in PT, which is that the tracks that belong to the VCA respond in tandem to the controls activated on the VCA - BUT - you still have individual control of the tracks.

Was that not clear? How is the above "linking tracks"?
Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:Why shouldn't record be the same? If you don't want that functionality you don't have to press the button. It's exactly that simple.
First of all, why is it a problem to do exactly that thing by linking faders/tracks in the old fashioned way?
Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing anyone using VCA faders for anything other than final mixing.
Why is it a problem to perform level changes by linking faders the old fashioned way? Your question makes no sense. The whole point of using VCAs is increased convenience. Why is this any different than level? You could link all your gunshot sound effects tracks and they'd live next to your gun handling foley tracks living next to your other foley tracks and to the left of the gunshot tracks you have the impact tracks and the...... you get the picture.... very wide project with many tracks...... and then you can ask the question: "Why is it a problem to do exactly that by linking faders/tracks"? and the answer is "Because the entire project is very wide and it's inconvenient to change the level (or solo or mute) like that". Same thing applies to changing rec status.

As to your second point, I don't understand it. If you're on a stage and you want to record enable your stems to punch in a fix is that not "final mixing"? Seems like meaningless splitting of hairs to me.
Fredo wrote:A VCA is a voltage controlled amplifier.
It offsets the voltage of the faders assigned to that VCA, thereby creating a dual layer level control.
That is the definition of a VCA, and that's how they have always worked on the traditional consoles.

For the record, I know that PT VCA's have a rec-arm function; this is not about copying functions from another DAW, but about implementing functionality with a clear vision. Which indeed results in pro and contra's.
Ok, fine. As I already said: If included, nobody that ever uses Nuendo has to push the button. It can just sit there, completely unusued - like it is in the video of Nuendo 7 VCA functionality btw. So what are the "pro" / "con" in this case in your opinion?

About copying functions from another DAW and vision: Sometimes people here sound like they don't want to "copy" from other DAWs because Nuendo has to be special. But what's the point? More people use PT in post than use Nuendo. Regardless of whether it's about growing market share or just getting more engineers - or - just making an app better, why is "copying" even an issue worth bringing up?

If there's a "vision" I'm missing here then why don't someone tell us what it is so we know.
Fredo wrote:I support the Steinbertg KISS approach very much, and as said, some things are missing at the moment.
A lot of what Nuendo does is very very far from KISS when compared to other apps. I don't have a problem with it because it's worth-while trade-off as long as stuff works properly.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

I have to run, do I can't answer in detail.
But I remembered a thread in the Cubase forums about ths C8 VCA behaviour.
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... CA#p407965


Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

I am well aware of what's said in that discussion, and it's exactly the confusion I'm talking about.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Grabber »

Lydiot wrote:I am well aware of what's said in that discussion, and it's exactly the confusion I'm talking about.
One simple question:
Now that the "saved grouping settings" bug for the VCA/Linking feature in C..... is fixed, do you prefer the C..... or the Nuendo 7 VCA implementation?

Before the difference is clear, and the way preferred, it is of no use of keep the discussion going.

The NON working Solo and Mute button in Nuendo is of corse a bug, and will be fixed soon.

Over and out................ for now ;)

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Grabber wrote:
Lydiot wrote:I am well aware of what's said in that discussion, and it's exactly the confusion I'm talking about.
One simple question:
Now that the "saved grouping settings" bug for the VCA/Linking feature in C..... is fixed, do you prefer the C..... or the Nuendo 7 VCA implementation?
The Nuendo implementation is supposedly lacking features, so until those features show up it's really like comparing apples with oranges. I do agree that "linking" is better separated from VCA functionality though.
Grabber wrote:Before the difference is clear, and the way preferred, it is of no use of keep the discussion going.
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what the above means.

You wrote:

"What I don't want, is the ability to record arm all tracks from a VCA fader/group with a single button.
I don't want to let all tracks in a VCA group be selected when clicking a single track."

The two above are connected in Cubase (if I understand it correctly) because the VCAs are connected via "linked channels". That's not supposed to happen in Nuendo 7 because that's not how VCAs connect to faders. So IN NUENDO those two things are entirely separate issues.

See the difference now and why I'm saying that adding solo/mute/rec/input monitoring etc doesn't matter to you if you don't want to use it? It's because if you were to add that in Nuendo, since it doesn't create an actual "link-group", it wouldn't create the situation you're talking about not wanting.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Grabber »

You know what I mean by now ;)

We are basically agree......

But I do NOT want the record arm button, but can agree upon giving the rec-arm button an option in the prefs (enable/disable).

I want the VCA's to work as a regular/original VCA system, with Level, Mute, and Solo automation possibilities.

All that extra stuff I want included in the Grouping/Linking feature. I do NOT wanna think about all other linked/grouped options when doing VCA fader/mute/solo rides.

As I said: I do think we are very close to agree. No more from me before the Mute/Solo button bug is fixed.





PS. Let's just say that I have had an accident with it in a Cubase project.
In the event that the VCA's are NOT signal routing dependent, there can be a challenge to track down an accidental run in "record ready mode". Especially when using nested VCA's.

Later :)

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

I still don't see how a rec button is confusing or bad for functionality if it works like solo/mute.

For example: "Return to start position at stop" (transport) is something that affects all users. You press play, you press stop, and what then happens affects us all. It makes sense to have a preference and/or toggle switch.

In the case of a VCA button it only becomes an active function if you press it. Don't want to trigger rec of all tracks from the VCA they belong to? Don't push the button. You don't need a preference for it. You only need to not push a button.

If engineers today can't not push a big red button in a DAW then, oh well.... this is supposed to be a "pro" application I tell myself at least....
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