Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

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Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by jb » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:49 pm

I went from cubase 3 to 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5 and have always found that there was something strange going on with the sound engine since 6. Sort of a "blurred' sound, sort of like listening to mp3.. If I check my mixes made in 6 and higher in for example foobar, the effect is gone. I have always had the feeling that there was something wrong with my speakers, preamps, studio acoustics or my ears, because I could never achieve truly professional results in my studio. As a livesound engineer I work with expensive gear, and returning to my studio always was very frustrating because of this. I tried Reaper and studio One, the sound was much better, but I always returned to Cubase for it features..

The 7.5.30 update however is a revelaton! This blurred sound is no more now, and everything works as I am used to, like with the high end live gear. Bigger resolution, far more realistic and crispy treble, and a far more focussed sound, while opening EXACTLY THE SAME Cubase file, created in 6.5...

I am pretty shure this was not the case in 7.5.20.
Again, the SAME FILE opened in 6.5 or 7.5.30 sounds TOTALY different to my ears.
I checked this with a friend musician/engineer/Cubase user in my studio, he had exactly the same experience, we both came to the conclusion that finaly someting has drasticly changed for the better..

I still have to find out if this will have effect on my rendered mixes, and how they will sound outside of the studio, but I expect that not having to work agains this blur ( because that is what you end up with, trying to fix it) will give much better results. I will post my findings on this later.

Anybody else having the same experience?
Could Steinberg maybe shine a light?

Needless to say I am thrilled with this upgrade just because of this!
Last edited by jb on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:01 pm

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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by jb » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:05 pm

Thanks Lucas for clearing this so quick!
In my studio the difference is actualy VERY obvious..
Last edited by jb on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by lukasbrooklyn » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:06 pm

jb wrote:Thanks Lucas for clearing this so quick!
no worries 8-)
system// i7 4930k, w7 x64, c7.5.4, (c8)
audio// RME HDSP, SSL duende, audeze lcd-2, klein&hummel o300, adam s2x, lavry DA, avantone mixcubes, EL Fatso ...

http://www.lukasturza.com // http://www.snapmastering.com // music production / mixing / mastering [hybris, upbeats, noisia, rem koolhaas, czech television, havas, ogilvy, ...]

cubendo supercharged workflow ideas/threads of possible interest:
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http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 81&t=38182
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by jb » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:16 pm

I knew this was comming, so..
But anyway, just askin..
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Prock » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:22 pm

jb wrote:I knew this was comming, so..
But anyway, just askin..
What was coming? What am I missing here?

Regards. 8-)
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Rotund » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:16 am

Maybe the wax in your ears has shifted.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Arksun76 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:18 am

I've used Cubase since before VST technology was born. For quite some time Cubase has used a 32-bit float engine. The algorithm to mix two signals together is probably one of the simplest bits of code there is in a DAW, it either works or it doesn't. You would have to code in some kind of transient smearing plug to make the sound seem more blurred compared to the current update.

Do a mixdown render in both 6.5 then 7.5.3 and properly blind test yourself, see if you can spot which is which every time. If there is indeed a 'revelation' of a difference between the two, your accuracy should be 100%. Whilst you're at it, post the clips up here :)
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by curteye » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:22 am

Aloha guys, just to chime in on the topic.

I did notice a 'sound/audio' change going from SX3 to C4 (especially the e.q's)
but no real differences since then.

Then again my ears I and are way older than dirt. :) :) :)

Good Luck!

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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by greggybud » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:24 am

I won't even suggest any null tests. :lol:

Or just asking a rep if the "sound engine" has been altered in 7.5.30. :o
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by curteye » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:29 am

greggybud wrote:Or just asking a rep if the "sound engine" has been altered in 7.5.30. :o
+1
You can bet that if they did change it, they would be pushing that change as
the 'best thing since sliced bread' in all their advertisements.

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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Jalcide » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:57 am

I'm in the "null test, or it didn't happen" camp.

The "digital summing is digital summing" camp.

The "math is straightforward" camp.

But I'm not gonna lie, when I opened a current project in 7.5.30 and played it, I could have sworn I heard a clarity, a crispness, an improvement that was not there before.

I'm 100% sure this was just my imagination and do not even feel compelled to do a null test.

Having said that, I did make a bootable SSD backup of my 7.5.20 build ... so ...
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by curteye » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:07 am

Are we talking about only a difference in audio files
or are VSTi's also included?

Anyone here think VSTi's sound any better, worst, the same?

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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Jalcide » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:36 am

For me, it's all VSTi's.

I do think it's all in my head though. I'm sure it would null. If it doesn't null it's probably things like "random hall" reverb tails and the subtle differences that would prevent a full null even on the same version of Cubase.

But ... I did think "this sounds better" when I played the project the first time after installing.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Arksun76 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:26 am

I think a big part of that is that expectation of improvement that goes hand in hand with Cubase versions. ie the initial release being very problematic and gradually over the course of several updates all the bugs get ironed out. So we have this inherent overly positive attitude towards a new update, so naturally it seems to sound better from that positivity.

But who knows, to play devils advocate for a moment, maybe they tweaked the internal fx like eq or something, though as someone else said it would be highly unlikely for them to make such an improvement and not make a huge song and dance about it. Unless it was correcting a bug no-one knew about, but that seems very unlikely. I very rarely use Cubases built in plugins anyways so that's probably why I've noticed little to no difference in the sound of Cubase through the generations. There's only one way to mix audio streams in 32-bit float, the correct way, which is nothing more than a simple bit of code.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Flohre » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:35 am

recently i switched from samplitude ProX to Cubase - installed the 7.5.2-Version and tried to hear differences between these two DAWs, as Magix claims to have one of the best sounding DAWs on the market.
Well, there are tests on the internet, that show, that this claim is true, when you measure very very deep.
These measurements are very mathematical and theoretical - to me not valuable
Maybe in a big production, when tons of tracks are summed you could hear the difference.
In my case i couldn't hear the difference. Most of the time i do narration for Documentations and commercials...so, just one track :D

My conclusion : No difference to my ears (i wash them every day) - neither in the last Cubase installation, nor in the actual

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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by vikingstudios » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:53 am

If they had changed it (deliberately)they would be shouting about it!

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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Timo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:06 am

Cubase 7 has new EQs, it is absolutely possible that 7 sounds different to you.

From KB:
"The channel EQ in Nuendo 6 and Cubase 7 has been newly developed and is technically not the same EQ as in previous versions anymore. We have taken care to make sure that EQ settings saved in projects of previous versions are correctly translated to the new EQ to retain the same perceived sound as best as possible. However, when loading projects saved in a previous version into Nuendo 6 / Cubase 7 you may notice minor variances of the Q-Factor value for all EQ bands, especially evident when using the “Parametric I” filter. In this case the sound of the playback, dependent of the audio material on which such EQ band filters are applied, can be more or less noticeably different and may require re-adjusting the Q-Factor on affected channels."
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by marQs » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:44 am

7.5.20 > 7.5.30 = no personal experience of sonic differences/improvements.

Haven't even realized the EQ improvements Timo mentions. Did hardly use Cubase' EQ before 7 (before it was instantly touchable in the mixer without opening channel editor). That said, I found the simple onboard channel EQ to be very useful and musical since I use it :mrgreen:
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by C.LYDE101 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:28 am

Emperor's clothes.... and the boy said... look, there's nothing there.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by jb » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:40 pm

So I just did a null test with a 20 channel multitrack mix, audio only, no VSTI's. The file was created using 6.5., using plugins and eq.

I rendered a 6.5 version, rendered a 7.5.30 version..
Checked ALL the settings of ALL the channels, identical. No plugins missing, etc.
Made a copy of both versions, inverted the copy's.
opened them al 4 in 7.5.30

The files don't null here at all. I can hear all the instruments in the mix mix at approx -20 db, and also some distortion like artifacts. The inverted 6.5 and original mix null of course, the 7.5.30 orr and inverted also.
But not the 6.5 and 7.5.30..

I'm curious if someone else can try this?
Once again, I'm talking a multitrack mix using plugins and eq.

So there is a difference, at least in MY studio, and I will try to get to the bottom of this. the next thing I will do is rendering an unprocessed simple stereo wav, and then do the same with cubase-eq in both versions, etc.....
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Timo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:50 pm

Read what I wrote. Turn off all channel EQs and try again.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Arksun76 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:34 pm

Timo wrote:Read what I wrote. Turn off all channel EQs and try again.
Or replace all eq instances with third party eq plugin that will be identical between 6.5 and 7.5

Also if you're using any fx or synths that have free cycling lfos that might shift the position on each render, which would mean the null test isn't as effective at telling differences.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by Scab Pickens » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:22 pm

jb wrote:So I just did a null test with a 20 channel multitrack mix, audio only, no VSTI's. The file was created using 6.5., using plugins and eq.

So I rendered a 6.5 version, rendered a 7.5.30 version..
Checked ALL the settings of ALL the channels, identical. No plugins missing, etc.
Made a copy of both versions, inverted the copy's.
opened them al 4 in 7.5.30

The files don't null here at all. I can hear all the instruments in the mix mix at approx -20 db, and also some distortion like artifacts. The inverted 6.5 and original mix null of course, the 7.5.30 orr and inverted also.
But not the 6.5 and 7.5.30..

I'm curious if someone else can try this?
Once again, I'm talking a multitrack mix using plugins and eq.

So there is a difference, at least in MY studio, and I will try to get to the bottom of this. the next thing I will do is rendering an unprocessed simple stereo wav, and then do the same with cubase-eq in both versions, etc.....
I thought you said you noticed the difference between 7.5.20 -> 7.5.30.

For what it's worth, when initially opening projects created in 6.5 in 7 I did notice a bit of change (as explained above). So far, only working on two projects created in 7.5.20 and continuing working in 7.5.30, I can't hear any change.
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Re: Cubase 7.5.30 Sound engine

Post by jb » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:59 pm

So just to be clear:
I used no VSTI,s only audio. All my plugins are identical in both versions of Cubase. (the SAME VstPlugin folder). the file was created in 6.5 and opened without missing plugin warnings, and identical settings (I checked, do you want me to post the screenshots?) in 7.5.30 for comparison/nulling test.

I rendered the files in various ways in both versions and listened to the residue that is left when nulling (had to turn up the level a bit):

The full mix: no nulling. Sort of a full mix, I can hear drums, bass, a vocal, two guitars, and a lot of reverb. The guitars have a lot of sub in the "resudue" and the drums sound very thin.

Mute all FX returns > no nulling. same sound balance as above, just no more effect returns/reverb.

mute (al FX returns) and bypass inserts>>no nulling. Now I only hear bas and drums (??), drums sound ""thin". The vocals and guitars are GONE. So a different residue than before due to bypassing the inserts...

mute all (FX returns, bypass inserts) and EQ,s, >>STILL no nulling! And this is strange, because now it should null if it was in the plugins, eq or effects! But it doesn't;
Now I only hear sub of the guitars (stil propperly panned) and vocal (???), nomore bass and drums.
And for what it is worth: the guitars were panned 45 degree left-right, but the vocal was panned center. the guitars go to a subgroup, the vocal straigt to the mix. (using standard pan only).

Something is different, but what? I checked pan law, and some other settings, but no differences there either.(and it shouldn't, it is a project based setting).

Anyway, I also had the experience that C7 plays some parts muted that should be on in a song created in 6..
So both versions are unpredictibly incompatible as far as I am concerned.
EDIT: prefs> "treat muted parts as deleted" solves this. Should be on by defallt when installing for the first time for compatibility reasons I think...
Looks like I will have to add a version number after each file to remember wich version of Cubase I should use to properly open it..
I get far better sounding results with 7.5.30, ( and yes, this could be due to the eq) so I think I'll just have to bounce my edits before moving.
Last edited by jb on Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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