Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

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Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:43 am

I use ARC 2 (room compensation plugin from IK Multimedia) and because WL8 still does not seem to have any proper solution for monitoring a different audio path from the processing path (like Control Room in Cubase), I am trying to figure out the best workflow. The goal is to meter the original or consequently processed (with plugins in Master Section) audio material while using ARC 2 e.g. seeing the original / processed audio on meters AND listening to the room compensated signal.

Example: I put some plugins in the Master section (EQ, Compressor etc.) and as the last one (or as a Dithering plugin) I put there the ARC 2. This is fine from the listening perspective as the signal is correctly processed and in the end also room-compensated. The problem is that all meters / analyzers (apart from Master Level meter which can be altered using a different Monitoring point) show the signal AFTER room compensation was applied thus totally irrelevant (when rendering, the room compensation must be switched off).

Any ideas? I really hoped that the new Speaker Management would solve this in WL8 but unfortunately it does not.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by PG » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:24 am

The problem is that all meters / analyzers (...) show the signal AFTER room compensation was applied thus totally irrelevant
Not at all. The WaveLab meters (and any meter in any plugin), show the signal before room compensation. This is easy to verify.
when rendering, the room compensation must be switched off
Room compensation is always off when rendering. You don't need to do anything, it will not be taken into account.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:15 pm

PG, apparently you misunderstood my post as it is you who is completely wrong here.
If I activate ARC 2 in Master Section (either as an Effect plugin or Post-master) it IS taken into account both for all the meters in Control Window (Level Meter, Loudness Meter, Bit-meter etc.) and also when Render is done. This is very simple to verify as the plugin has also a gain knob within itself...
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by PG » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:19 pm

Not sure to follow you. What I said before is true. I say it in other words: when you change the room compensation gain, this is NOT reflected in any plugin nor meter.
And I believe this is good so...
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Arjan P » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:52 pm

Philippe, the point is that ARC is a room correction plugin to adapt speakers to the room they're in. As such, you don't want them in the audio chain - affecting meters and rendered audio. The WL speaker management doesn't offer an extra plugin slot to realize such a situation, but only has gain settings outside the WL audio chain. This is thereby dissimilar to Cubase, where the control room offers such functionality.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by PG » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:27 pm

Arjan, thanks to make this clear. I did not know the functionality of the ARC plugin.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:03 am

PG wrote:I did not know the functionality of the ARC plugin.
You did not?? Frankly, that surprises me a lot because I thought you are informed pretty well as you were in contact with IK Multimedia (the vendor) because of the big issue we, ARC2 users, had with WL7 and discussed in WL7 forum ("ARC2 crashes Wavelab7"). Not to mention another WL7 topic "Control room monitoring (Nuendo like)" and others.
I remember this needed functionality was discussed and described here on WL forums several times, even I myself started a topic "Speaker management" here in WL8 where you did respond, and now I realize you did not even know what we were actually asking for all the time? :?

OK, so now that you finally got the full picture, any ideas?
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Justin P » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:18 am

I have the hardware Dorrough meters connected to my monitor controller in my main studio, but sometimes when I'm working remotely on the laptop, I've thought about how great it would be to have a place to insert the Waves Dorrough meters that isn't in the rendered signal path. Sometimes if I prepare a few dozen sessions with the Dorrough meters on the master I have to go and take the meters off all the sessions before rendering just to be safe.

It would be nice if DAWs had a dedicated meter insert that was not part of the rendered audio chain or the monitor chain (optionally).
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by PG » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:49 am

@Johnny B Richman: indeed, I was in touch with IK Multimedia for a compatibility problem, and not to speak about the functionality of their plugin. Yes, I remember some past discussion on the topic, but in my memory that was unrelated to the "ARC" name.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Craig Garnett » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:17 pm

If it's not just my simplistic view of things - can't you just run the ARC plugin in a vst host and route the output of Wavelab through it?

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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Jay M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:54 pm

Craig Garnett wrote:If it's not just my simplistic view of things - can't you just run the ARC plugin in a vst host and route the output of Wavelab through it?

Craig
Can you recommend one for windows?

thanks,
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Craig Garnett » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:09 am

Jay M wrote:
Craig Garnett wrote:If it's not just my simplistic view of things - can't you just run the ARC plugin in a vst host and route the output of Wavelab through it?

Craig
Can you recommend one for windows?

thanks,
~Jay
I use JRiver Media Center for my music library and the facility to set it up to receive from ASIO has just been added experimentally, it has long since been able to use VST plugins.
I'm not sure if the ASIO In is in the public versions (I'm on the beta team) or how well it works yet but it was that that got me thinking.

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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:49 am

Craig Garnett wrote:I use JRiver Media Center for my music library and the facility to set it up to receive from ASIO has just been added experimentally, it has long since been able to use VST plugins.
I'm not sure if the ASIO In is in the public versions (I'm on the beta team) or how well it works yet but it was that that got me thinking.Craig
I also use JRiver Media Center (mainly for playing and managing music) and I do use VST plugins there (incl. ARC) nevertheless I am not aware on any option to monitor incoming signal there.

Indeed any simple VST host capable of monitoring would do - however I am not aware of any such solution.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Craig Garnett » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:30 am

Johnny B Richman wrote: I also use JRiver Media Center (mainly for playing and managing music) and I do use VST plugins there (incl. ARC) nevertheless I am not aware on any option to monitor incoming signal there.

Indeed any simple VST host capable of monitoring would do - however I am not aware of any such solution.
I'll try and find out what version it is available in, I presume you're using MC18?

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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Craig Garnett » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:52 pm

Craig Garnett wrote:
I'll try and find out what version it is available in, I presume you're using MC18?

Craig
The official answer from JRiver is "It's a beta feature but won't be public for a couple of months."
It is kind of working but it's not working well with Wavelab at the moment anyway.
I'll do what I can to make sure it works with Wavelab when it is released.

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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:15 pm

Craig Garnett wrote: I'll do what I can to make sure it works with Wavelab when it is released.
Craig
Great! At least there is a little light at the end of the tunnel now.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Arjan P » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:27 pm

On the other hand; the most elegant way would be to have the Speaker Management in WL extended with a/some plugin slot/slots. Good feature request anyway, IMO.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:18 pm

Arjan P wrote:...the most elegant way would be to have the Speaker Management in WL extended with a/some plugin slot/slots.
Of course it would and I did hope for such a feature when Speaker Management was announced in WL8...

PG?
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Jay M » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:33 pm

Arjan P wrote:On the other hand; the most elegant way would be to have the Speaker Management in WL extended with a/some plugin slot/slots. Good feature request anyway, IMO.
This was requested in another thread when Wavelab 8 was newer. I really hope this feature can be added.

Even if you don't want to buy the Arc software, it would be handy to have a simple EQ in that section.

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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by TheRealMister » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:22 pm

Add my vote to have a plugin slot added in the speaker management section that bypasses the meters and rendered audio exactly like the gain compensation (similar to the control room section in Cubase and Nuendo).

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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:48 pm

So PG, any hope for a solution within WL?
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by PG » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:16 pm

Sorry, there is no short term plan to add a plugin with the speaker configuration.
Possibly post Master Section, but as many plugin as speaker configurations.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:27 pm

PG wrote:...but as many plugin as speaker configurations.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by that?
Anyway, any (even temporary) solution would be great.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by PG » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:37 pm

You can switch between 8 speaker configurations, each one with a custom gain. What would be difficult, would be to add a plugin to each of these configurations.
What would be easier, would be to have *one* post-master plugin, independent of the speaker configurations.
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Re: Metering source audio while using ARC - possible?

Post by Johnny B Richman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:11 pm

I see. Although not ideal for multi speaker configuration systems (for each speaker set-up usually a different set of plugins / presets is needed), it would still be a HUGE improvement!
So, please... ;)
BTW by "one" you mean literally 1 piece of plugin or one common place for several plugins in a chain? I can think of at least 3 needed in a raw - this is how I use it in Cubase (ARC = compensation, limiter, dithering)
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