Warped Files Bounce Inaccurately

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Pristudio
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Warped Files Bounce Inaccurately

Post by Pristudio » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:00 pm

Ok, my disappointment with the comp tool is already behind

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19&t=24419

Time for a new problem:

The audio warp is giving me hard times, tried to fix some time issue but when I bounce the file it goes all over the place, a little behind, a little late, sometimes in the right place.
Happened several times, I did an experiment and see the photo attached, the files on Top is the warped and bounced file, the middle one has the warp but still non bounced, original on bottom.
Since I often export files for other studios, I NEED this damn thing to work!
I already had a client looking at me and asking me why... bad.

Hope this time someone chimes in.
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warpp.JPG
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Last edited by Pristudio on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hippo
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Hippo » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:44 pm

Looks good enough to me
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by alexis » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:10 pm

Pristudio wrote:Ok, my disappointment with the comp tool is already behind

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19&t=24419

Time for a new problem:

The audio warp is giving me hard times, tried to fix some time issue but when I bounce the file it goes all over the place, a little behind, a little late, sometimes in the right place.
Happened several times, I did an experiment and see the photo attached, the files on Top is the warped and bounced file, the middle one has the warp but still non bounced, original on bottom.
Since I often export files for other studios, I NEED this damn thing to work!
I already had a client looking at me and asking me why... bad.

Hope this time someone chimes in.
Can you describe the details of how you applied warp to the bottom file? 18 msec delay at 44.1K if I'm reading the scale correctly, hopefully the odds are right that it's a simple fix.
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

Pristudio
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:25 am

As I said, they are all around, randomly before or after in the same track. All around and messy.
The point is: You don't see what you get.
You place the attack of the sound in a position, bounce the file (freeze, bounce, even realtime ) and the sound is somewhere else, before or after the desired position, randomly, in the same track!
I usually apply the warp in free mode, manually with the pro algorithm.

For the example I used a random position, it's worse than that and no, it's not ok Hippo.

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by alexis » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:34 pm

Pristudio wrote:As I said, they are all around, randomly before or after in the same track. All around and messy.
The point is: You don't see what you get.
You place the attack of the sound in a position, bounce the file (freeze, bounce, even realtime ) and the sound is somewhere else, before or after the desired position, randomly, in the same track!
I usually apply the warp in free mode, manually with the pro algorithm.

For the example I used a random position, it's worse than that and no, it's not ok Hippo.
What happens when you bounce a file that has not been warped - is the placement sample accurate?
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

Pristudio
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:28 pm

alexis wrote:
Pristudio wrote:As I said, they are all around, randomly before or after in the same track. All around and messy.
The point is: You don't see what you get.
You place the attack of the sound in a position, bounce the file (freeze, bounce, even realtime ) and the sound is somewhere else, before or after the desired position, randomly, in the same track!
I usually apply the warp in free mode, manually with the pro algorithm.

For the example I used a random position, it's worse than that and no, it's not ok Hippo.
What happens when you bounce a file that has not been warped - is the placement sample accurate?
Yeah, sample accurate, null each other with out of phase button...

Tried on another machine, running a fresh install of Cubase 6.5, same bug.

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by alexis » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:35 pm

Pristudio wrote:
alexis wrote:
Pristudio wrote:As I said, they are all around, randomly before or after in the same track. All around and messy.
The point is: You don't see what you get.
You place the attack of the sound in a position, bounce the file (freeze, bounce, even realtime ) and the sound is somewhere else, before or after the desired position, randomly, in the same track!
I usually apply the warp in free mode, manually with the pro algorithm.

For the example I used a random position, it's worse than that and no, it's not ok Hippo.
What happens when you bounce a file that has not been warped - is the placement sample accurate?
Yeah, sample accurate, null each other with out of phase button...

Tried on another machine, running a fresh install of Cubase 6.5, same bug.
What if you warped by applying "Sizing applies time stretch" (with the snap point and the audio event set to the start of audio clip/waveform) - does the attack stay at the same sample?

When warping, we are asking Cubase to change the audio timing, so the fact that the start of the audio is off might not be a bug. Also, there are a lot of ways for things to go astray, snap to zero crossing, Musical mode, etc. What is the weirdest thing to me, at this point, is that the bounce you showed doesn't seem to be sample accurate.
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:19 am

Yeah, I don't ask to be sample accurate, what's weird is the "all over the place" effect", if you try to get the attack of the transients on time, they're actually moved but sometimes ahead, sometimes after, in random order...

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by MrMeshuggah » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:29 pm

Pristudio wrote:As I said, they are all around, randomly before or after in the same track. All around and messy.
The point is: You don't see what you get.
You place the attack of the sound in a position, bounce the file (freeze, bounce, even realtime ) and the sound is somewhere else, before or after the desired position, randomly, in the same track!
I usually apply the warp in free mode, manually with the pro algorithm.

For the example I used a random position, it's worse than that and no, it's not ok Hippo.
I have been experiencing the same issue as yourself. If I use the audio warp feature on a selected audio segment then choose 'Audio > Bounce Selection' I will end up with all my transients in completely different places - great when you're trying to get a few layered guitars to have the correct impact!

My only present workaround has been to keep all my audio in Free Warp mode and not bounce it down. Steinberg definitely need to sort this out.

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:15 am

My problems come when I need to bounce files to deliver finished guitars for other studios.
Double check the bounces and the files are messed up, tried realtime, freeze, non realtime,whatever, I still didn't found a solution for that...

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by alexis » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:11 pm

Pristudio wrote:My problems come when I need to bounce files to deliver finished guitars for other studios.
Double check the bounces and the files are messed up, tried realtime, freeze, non realtime,whatever, I still didn't found a solution for that...
Hey Pristudio! There are lots of ways to do an audio warp, it may be that if you give a very detailed step-by-step of what you did from the very beginning someone will be able to spot something that can help you.
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:04 pm

alexis wrote:
Pristudio wrote:My problems come when I need to bounce files to deliver finished guitars for other studios.
Double check the bounces and the files are messed up, tried realtime, freeze, non realtime,whatever, I still didn't found a solution for that...
Hey Pristudio! There are lots of ways to do an audio warp, it may be that if you give a very detailed step-by-step of what you did from the very beginning someone will be able to spot something that can help you.
Hey Alexis, thanks for your help!

1) a mono audio recording
2) open sample editor
3) open audiowarp in free mode
4) edit to fix little timing mistakes
warp.jpg
(74.65 KiB) Not downloaded yet
5) bounce selection -or- export mixdown -or- flatten... see results on pictures
bounceselection.JPG
(83.42 KiB) Not downloaded yet
flatten.jpg
(84.32 KiB) Not downloaded yet
you see only one hit but...

note that ALL results are random so it's not possible to shift the track to put it back on grid...

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mr.roos
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by mr.roos » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:03 pm

Not to stop this complaint-help-fix-request process, but you could always do a mixdown of the single track and import it to your project. The mixdown track would sync.
Cubase 10 from SX3, WaveLab Pro 9.5, iC Pro remote app, Win7 64-bit, Intel C2Q9550@2.83GHz, 8G ram, Radeon HD 6570, Gigabyte X48-DS5 MB, Mackie 1640i (FireWire), M-Audio Keystation 61es controller via an M-Audio Midi-Sport 1X1.

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by alexis » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:29 am

Pristudio wrote:
alexis wrote:
Pristudio wrote:My problems come when I need to bounce files to deliver finished guitars for other studios.
Double check the bounces and the files are messed up, tried realtime, freeze, non realtime,whatever, I still didn't found a solution for that...
Hey Pristudio! There are lots of ways to do an audio warp, it may be that if you give a very detailed step-by-step of what you did from the very beginning someone will be able to spot something that can help you.
Hey Alexis, thanks for your help!

1) a mono audio recording
2) open sample editor
3) open audiowarp in free mode
4) edit to fix little timing mistakes
warp.jpg
5) bounce selection -or- export mixdown -or- flatten... see results on pictures
bounceselection.JPG
flatten.jpg
you see only one hit but...

note that ALL results are random so it's not possible to shift the track to put it back on grid...
I can confirm the same thing here on my system, though I used a stereo audio file. This happened whether Musical Mode was on or not. Also it only happened on files that were warped, not on files that weren't warped - these latter files nulled when dup'd/bounced/phase inverted.

Here's what I did, just for the record, with Musical Mode off, then on (same results).

1) Dup a stereo audio file
2) Free warp the beginning to 0.95 like you did
3) Come out of the Sample Editor and dup the warped track.
4) Visual inspection - the warped track and its dup look identical.
5) Bounce the dup'd warped track, and "replace".
6) Visual inspection - this bounced track is not at all identical to the original warped track, and of course it doesn't null when phase inverted.

Same results occur whether the "Free Warp" is turned on or off at the time of bouncing the Warped file.

Maybe this is a well-known behavior, maybe even with some benefits? First I've heard of it also, so thanks for bringing it up.

The solution mentioned above of doing a batch export of the warped file and bringing it back into the project DOES have the new file sync'd to the old. But why should this be necessary? And again, unwarped tracks are not shifted in my system when bounced - only warped tracks.

Look forward to hearing from more experienced people about this -

Thanks again!
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:09 am

mr.roos wrote:Not to stop this complaint-help-fix-request process, but you could always do a mixdown of the single track and import it to your project. The mixdown track would sync.
No, the mixdown track DO NOT sync, as explained...

In my case all points are shifted from where they were supposed to be and there's no way to get a somehow bounced, freezed, or flatten file in the right position, if you guys can, let me know exactly how since I may have to import files to PT 10.2 and use elastic audio to deliver corrected files, and I hate that...

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by mr.roos » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:35 am

OK, I said to do a 'mixdown', not a 'bounce', and these, the mixed down track and the original should be sync'd perfectly. If they're not, I want my money back. :cry:
Cubase 10 from SX3, WaveLab Pro 9.5, iC Pro remote app, Win7 64-bit, Intel C2Q9550@2.83GHz, 8G ram, Radeon HD 6570, Gigabyte X48-DS5 MB, Mackie 1640i (FireWire), M-Audio Keystation 61es controller via an M-Audio Midi-Sport 1X1.

Pristudio
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:49 am

mr.roos wrote:OK, I said to do a 'mixdown', not a 'bounce', and these, the mixed down track and the original should be sync'd perfectly. If they're not, I want my money back. :cry:
Well, the picture above is the result of a export mixdown of a warped track against the original warped track, You can start ask your money back...
exportmixdown.jpg
(41.12 KiB) Not downloaded yet
...and don't forget, it goes all over the place during the track, no way to shift the track in place.

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by MrMeshuggah » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:59 am

I get the feeling that the Audio Warp feature was something that was a bit rushed in its introduction to Cubase. Cubase should also allow audio warping within the Project View so audio tracks can be warped using other audio tracks as reference points. Not all music is played against a grid.

Until this is sorted I will be returning to using Elastic Audio in Pro Tools.

Pristudio
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:07 am

MrMeshuggah wrote:I get the feeling that the Audio Warp feature was something that was a bit rushed in its introduction to Cubase. Cubase should also allow audio warping within the Project View so audio tracks can be warped using other audio tracks as reference points. Not all music is played against a grid.

Until this is sorted I will be returning to using Elastic Audio in Pro Tools.
+1!

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by alexis » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:35 am

Is this the first discussion of this? Should it be submitted as a bug?

I must say my world is shaken. To now have to wonder if the "bounce" process is not going to be accurate is unnerving.
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

Pristudio
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Re: Warp this way?

Post by Pristudio » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:43 am

alexis wrote:Is this the first discussion of this? Should it be submitted as a bug?

I must say my world is shaken. To now have to wonder if the "bounce" process is not going to be accurate is unnerving.
I think it should... Yeah, it happens only on warped files but it's a bummer...

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Re: Warp this way?

Post by alexis » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:00 pm

Pristudio wrote:
alexis wrote:Is this the first discussion of this? Should it be submitted as a bug?

I must say my world is shaken. To now have to wonder if the "bounce" process is not going to be accurate is unnerving.
I think it should... Yeah, it happens only on warped files but it's a bummer...
Hey Pristudio - why don't you change the title of this thread to " [Bug?]: Warped Files Bounce Inaccurately" .

I think that's how Steinberg has asked for potential bugs to be reported: http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... =19&t=3400
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

Pristudio
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Re: [Bug?]: Warped Files Bounce Inaccurately

Post by Pristudio » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:15 pm

Done! Thanks! ;)

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Re: [Bug?]: Warped Files Bounce Inaccurately

Post by MrMeshuggah » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:25 pm

Nice work Pri, this has been bothering me for some time - especially when you spend countless hours aligning things, bounce down, listen back and hear a complete phase mess!

Pristudio
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Re: [Bug?]: Warped Files Bounce Inaccurately

Post by Pristudio » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:22 pm

MrMeshuggah wrote:Nice work Pri, this has been bothering me for some time - especially when you spend countless hours aligning things, bounce down, listen back and hear a complete phase mess!
Thanks! Let's hope it will be fixed soon...

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