URGENT - clicks problems SOLVED

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Biss
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URGENT - clicks problems SOLVED

Post by Biss » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:06 pm

I noticed that when I burn a CD from montage or basic cd there are small clicks at the beginning and end of the songs. I can here them in the headphones. They are not there if I render and listen to the files. I tried two different cd burner. Same. I am i deep trouble. I need to deliver the CD tomorrow and I tried everything.
Does anybody have any idea?
Can somebody suggest a cd burner that works? Like a Plextor maybe?
Any help appreciated.
Last edited by Biss on Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by PG » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:07 pm

How do you actually known there are clicks? Listing with a hardware player?

If you create a DDP file set, then import it afterwards, do you hear the clicks when playing back?

Did you try with another CD brand? (try this before trying with another burner).
Philippe

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:23 pm

Thanks for the quick reply.
I can hear the clicks when I listen to the CD in my Marantz hi-fi system.
I tried two different CD brands.
Haven't tried DDP. But if I render the whole montage there are no clicks in the file. But if I burn the CD from the montage (rendering before burning) or the individual files from the basic cd the clicks are right there.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by PG » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:29 pm

And when you grab the audio, do you see the clicks in the file?
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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:23 pm

I went out and bought the best Plextor I could find. Nothing has changed. But I noticed that I don't have clicks on the CD if I don't use dithering. Any kind included the one in Wavelab. No dither no clicks. Please tell me that it is safe to burn the cd without dithering. It is an acoustic cd with sometimes very quiet moments. Do you think is safe? Otherwise I don't know what to do.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by PG » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:34 pm

This is quite strange. Did you try both Internal Dither and UV22HR ?
This is like if the drive did not like to burn very low signals.
I never heard about such a thing. I would think the culprit is the CD media. You said you tried 2, but maybe you should try more.

If you can, try to burn from another PC.

Dithering is an option, it is not mandatory. In your position, don't use if that's the only solution. But are you really sure that's (part of) the problem?

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:42 pm

I tried dither on the Xenon and L1 limiter in the montage. Internal, Apogee, everything. It is insane. I have tried 4 different brand of cd, including high quality audio. I tried 4 burner and two computers. I don't get it. With or without plugs, same.
Thank you again for the quick replay. I'll go without dithering and then I will do more test. Am I sure that's the problem? It seems the only solution for now.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by PG » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:09 pm

When you grab the audio, do you see the clicks?
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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Rat » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:25 am

Just to look at the obvious ... Is the start of the 'audio' on your track at least 330 ms from the start of the track start marker/splice?

Sometimes, if the audio is close to the track start, you can hear a click as the CD player un-mutes after the audio has started to play. You wouldn't expect to hear this from the montage.

Good luck with this.
Regards

Paul

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:59 pm

First of all I want to thank PG. He answered to my messages on Saturday evening. That was life saving for me. Thanks Philippe, you're the best.

Rat wrote:Just to look at the obvious ... Is the start of the 'audio' on your track at least 330 ms from the start of the track start marker/splice?

Sometimes, if the audio is close to the track start, you can hear a click as the CD player un-mutes after the audio has started to play. You wouldn't expect to hear this from the montage.

Good luck with this.
At the moment I have what WL7 gives me by default which is around 200ms. I thought that was the standard thing to do. Should it be set higher?
Anyway, I tried to increase to more than 330ms but the problem is still there. I really don't know what to do.
Is there any other program with dithering I can try? I could render the separate files at 24bit in wavelab and burn the cd with something else. I have Nero Rom 11 but can't find a dither function. Does Nero do it automatically if you burn from 24bit files?

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by PG » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:01 pm

Try to toggle the audio in pause mode, maybe that helps.
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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Rat » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:35 am

Biss wrote:
At the moment I have what WL7 gives me by default which is around 200ms. I thought that was the standard thing to do. Should it be set higher?

Anyway, I tried to increase to more than 330ms but the problem is still there. I really don't know what to do.
Is there any other program with dithering I can try? I could render the separate files at 24bit in wavelab and burn the cd with something else. I have Nero Rom 11 but can't find a dither function. Does Nero do it automatically if you burn from 24bit files?
In terms of the audio start time, I was just trying to think of possible causes.

The other thing is ... I now notice that you are rendering the whole CD from 24 bit masters.

I wonder if the issue would still be there if you SRC'd/dithered each file separately down to 16/44.1 and reassembled the montage from those files and created the CD from there. I am thinking of a very outside chance that your particular configuration maybe has a 'look ahead' issue that is generating the click. I recall that in a previous generation of certain plugins from a well known company would generate clicks at the end and sometimes beginning of files.

BTW, do you see the clicks if you import the audio?

Best regards,
Paul
Regards

Paul

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:37 am

PG wrote:Try to toggle the audio in pause mode, maybe that helps.
Sorry, can you explain how to do it? :oops:


I also tried to render individual files from the montage to 44.1/16 with dither. The rendered files are absolutely fine when I look at them in wavelab. Then burnt a cd with the basic CD function in WL or Nero. Same result.
The clicks are very low but are there. You have to raise the volume between songs to hear them. I thought it was a problem with my Maranz. But I don't here these clicks on others CDs. Later today I am going to do more testing.
I am going to try to dither some files (without plugins) in Nuendo and then burn them on CD with Nero and see what happens.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by PG » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:46 am

I also tried to render individual files from the montage to 44.1/16 with dither. The rendered files are absolutely fine when I look at them in wavelab. Then burnt a cd with the basic CD function in WL or Nero. Same result.
That was a smart thing to try.
Another thing would be to grab the audio to see what's really on the CD.

Philippe
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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by pwhodges » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:10 am

I'm a bit reluctant even to ask, but are the tracks fully faded to/from zero at the ends? Is there a DC offset that's been preserved through the system? Simply a sudden drop to zero (without a visible spike) can cause an audible click.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:17 am

Ok. Here we go. I have done some serious test.
First, I re-imported the cd into wavelab and the files looks fine.
Here is exactly what happens.
On my Marantz cd player I can notice a small click at the end of a song if I raise the volume between songs. These happens almost on any CD I own.
When I burn a CD with Wavelab (montage/basic cd) or Nero using files dithered in wavelab I have two slightly more noticeable clicks: one at the end of a song (which is not very annoying) and one at the beginning of the song (including the first track on the CD, which is very annoying).
When I burn a CD with Wavelab or Nero using files dithered in Nuendo the CD behaves like any other CD in my collection. No clikes at the beginning of songs!
Now, I am probably being paranoid here and I should ignore the whole thing. Or maybe my Marantz is very picky or whatever and it makes this click when going to zero. But the question is: why does it work better with files dithered in Nuendo?
I also tried on my laptop (mac) and I have the same result. Probably these clicks are normal things that happens with CDs and CD players and I should just ignore them. But the clicks at the beginning of each song created with WL dither bother me a lot. Especially at the beginning of the first track, if you listen with headphones, you can spot it quite clearly. Should I just attribute this to my Marantz and forget the whole thing?
I tried to use a DVD player to play the CD, same result.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:23 am

pwhodges wrote:I'm a bit reluctant even to ask, but are the tracks fully faded to/from zero at the ends? Is there a DC offset that's been preserved through the system? Simply a sudden drop to zero (without a visible spike) can cause an audible click.

Paul
None of these things. I understand why you are reluctant to ask these questions. Please don't be. I have been doing mastering for quite a while. I have looked at this problem from any possible angle. But maybe is just in front of me and I can't see it!

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by PG » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:36 am

I can imagine that the Player watches for the audio level and triggers some gates under a certain level, causing the click. This level is certainly different in Nuendo and WaveLab.
I can imagine the same problem does not occur with another CD player.
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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:17 am

PG wrote:I can imagine that the Player watches for the audio level and triggers some gates under a certain level, causing the click. This level is certainly different in Nuendo and WaveLab.
I can imagine the same problem does not occur with another CD player.
I imagined something like that. But why the problem is never there on other CDs in my collection (I have 400 of them)? Could it be that something in Wavelab is not working 100% right? I am not suggesting anything here, just thinking.
Unfortunately I don't have another CD player to try. I tried a LG dvd/blu-ray player and had the same result, but it is not a test that I would consider much.
Anyway, would you suggest to go ahead and burn the CDs with dithering ignoring the problem from now on and forget about the whole thing?

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by S-EH » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:51 am

On my Marantz cd player I can notice a small click at the end of a song if I raise the volume between songs. These happens almost on any CD I own.
If you import the CD done in WL and check beginning and end of every track
with "Auto Error Detection and Correction" tool found in Audio Files,
can you see and find the clicks now ? if not I suspect the Marantz is very
sensitive about CDR brand/media or buggy firmware perhaps
dither from 24 bit to 16 bit is around - 80 dB with UV22HR

if clicks is not there when importing back to WL
then the CD player is to be suspected I think.

hope you find the reason

regards S-EH
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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by pwhodges » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:28 pm

You say that rendering to files gives no clicks. What happens if you render to files (with dither), and specify opening the rendered files in a montage including the markers, and then burn the CD from that montage (without dither, as that's already been applied)?

Also, what dither settings do you use?

Are the CD track markers properly snapped to CD frame ends?

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:36 pm

S-EH wrote:
On my Marantz cd player I can notice a small click at the end of a song if I raise the volume between songs. These happens almost on any CD I own.
If you import the CD done in WL and check beginning and end of every track
with "Auto Error Detection and Correction" tool found in Audio Files,
can you see and find the clicks now ? if not I suspect the Marantz is very
sensitive about CDR brand/media or buggy firmware perhaps
dither from 24 bit to 16 bit is around - 80 dB with UV22HR

if clicks is not there when importing back to WL
then the CD player is to be suspected I think.

hope you find the reason

regards S-EH
I don't think is CDR brand. I tried different brands and I always use cd-r audio by TDK or Sony.
If I re-import the files clicks are not there.
At this point I believe the problem is the CD player. I'll go with dithering in WL as I have always done. I can't waste my life on this. After all no clients has ever complained about it. The only logic conclusion is that the problem is with the Marantz.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:39 pm

pwhodges wrote:You say that rendering to files gives no clicks. What happens if you render to files (with dither), and specify opening the rendered files in a montage including the markers, and then burn the CD from that montage (without dither, as that's already been applied)?

Also, what dither settings do you use?

Are the CD track markers properly snapped to CD frame ends?

Paul
Already tried and checked all this. It makes no difference. Also tried several different types of dither.
At this point, it is probably a problem with the CD player.

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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by svs95 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:27 pm

This is not a problem with the audio data itself. The "problem" is that PQ subcode in standard CD tracks (with no audio in pauses) triggers the mute/unmute circuitry in the CD player. In some models, these circuits themselves can be noisy, due to cheap parts or just poor quality control, or the occasional part that slips through.

Bottom line though, it's none of WaveLab's doing. OTOH, WL does provide a "workaround" if you want to make sure players like this don't make the noise. You can choose mode "audio in pauses" which will write the subcode in such a way as to not trigger the mute circuit, or you can use splice markers between tracks, with no pauses at all.

The latter is my preferred method of mastering these days anyhow! The first thing most people do with a new CD is rip the audio to their mp3 player. If you have tracks with pauses, all the pause time gets removed by the extraction process. If you simply put a splice marker at the start of each track (after the first), and don't use end markers (except at the end of the disc), the extraction process will make the pause part of the end of each track, so when people listen with their portable players, they get the same program experience (including the pauses), except possibly a very brief mute which some players still do between tracks.


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Re: URGENT - clicks problems

Post by Biss » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:40 pm

svs95 wrote:This is not a problem with the audio data itself. The "problem" is that PQ subcode in standard CD tracks (with no audio in pauses) triggers the mute/unmute circuitry in the CD player. In some models, these circuits themselves can be noisy, due to cheap parts or just poor quality control, or the occasional part that slips through.

Bottom line though, it's none of WaveLab's doing. OTOH, WL does provide a "workaround" if you want to make sure players like this don't make the noise. You can choose mode "audio in pauses" which will write the subcode in such a way as to not trigger the mute circuit, or you can use splice markers between tracks, with no pauses at all.

The latter is my preferred method of mastering these days anyhow! The first thing most people do with a new CD is rip the audio to their mp3 player. If you have tracks with pauses, all the pause time gets removed by the extraction process. If you simply put a splice marker at the start of each track (after the first), and don't use end markers (except at the end of the disc), the extraction process will make the pause part of the end of each track, so when people listen with their portable players, they get the same program experience (including the pauses), except possibly a very brief mute which some players still do between tracks.


svs95
Thanks svs95. This make all perfect sense. Just one question. Where do I find the "audio in pauses" function? I want to try it. Plus I like your suggestion about including the pauses within the markers. Never thought about that. Thanks

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