Sends before Inserts?

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Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:41 pm

I would like to be able to send from an audio channel before the inserts. Is this possible? Ideally, I'd like to be able to put the sends anywhere I want in the chain, but I'm sure that this isn't possible. Any suggestions, other than double the number of tracks in the project? :(

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Schottlandru » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:03 am

I think there are plugins that allow sending of audio from one instance to another, but I don't remember any names.
You could check KVR, the plugin database and search there?
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:14 am

DG wrote:I would like to be able to send from an audio channel before the inserts. Is this possible? Ideally, I'd like to be able to put the sends anywhere I want in the chain, but I'm sure that this isn't possible. Any suggestions, other than double the number of tracks in the project? :(

DG
Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're trying to achieve (the larger picture)? Could be easier to find a solution that way.
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:04 am

Lydiot wrote:
DG wrote:I would like to be able to send from an audio channel before the inserts. Is this possible? Ideally, I'd like to be able to put the sends anywhere I want in the chain, but I'm sure that this isn't possible. Any suggestions, other than double the number of tracks in the project? :(

DG
Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're trying to achieve (the larger picture)? Could be easier to find a solution that way.
Yes of course. I have an audio track with SPAT as an insert, for placement. I want to send from the original audio to a reverb channel before it went through SPAT. Whatever way I do it, I end up with an extra track.

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:22 am

I guess duplicating track is the easiest way to do this really...
But you probably already do this ;)
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:09 am

Tumppi Järnefelt wrote:I guess duplicating track is the easiest way to do this really...
But you probably already do this ;)
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Yes, I don't want extra tracks. I've got enough in the project already. So I guess I've got my answer. Nuendo can't do this. :(

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by neilwilkes » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:28 pm

Sadly not - all the prefade sends are post insert.
It might make a nice FR to have the sends switchable to pre insert & EQ as well as pre-fader.
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:10 pm

Hmmm......

I don't think other Daw's do this either. I've never really thought about this really. I guess the problem would be if you'd want to send the signal pre- or post-fade. That'd be another decision that would have to be made in programming then....
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Fredo » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:13 pm

We had that discussion before on the old forum, and a closer look brought up many (technical) problems. As far as I can remember, we couldn't even make it work in theory.
That being said, technology has made big progress since then, so I guess nothing is impossible anymore ...

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Rucareanu » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:19 pm

You could use a group channel with SPAT insert and direct the dry and wet signals in it. I know it's an extra track but you won't have duplicate events.
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:30 pm

Rucareanu wrote:You could use a group channel with SPAT insert and direct the dry and wet signals in it. I know it's an extra track but you won't have duplicate events.
I don't want the wet signal going through SPAT and it's still an extra channel per instrument. As I have many instruments, it's not just one extra track.

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Fredo » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:34 pm

If it's a specific use, I use the reverb as an insert and automate the Dry/wet balance.
For a group of tracks, you can do this through a dedicated group track.
But things can get complicated pretty fast ...


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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Rucareanu » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:07 pm

If I understood correctly...

You want a signal to go to an aux channel before passing through inserts on that track?
Isn't it possible to put the SPAT plugin on the last two inserts which are post-fader inserts and set the aux send to pre-fader? I cannot test it now but this is how I remember Nuendo sends works.

On Nuendo manual (p.205, p.213) is says that insert effect 7 & 8 are post fader (post EQ also) and that you could send a track signal pre-insert 7 & 8.

Hope I understood properly what you want to achive. :D

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:15 pm

Rucareanu wrote:If I understood correctly...

You want a signal to go to an aux channel before passing through inserts on that track?
Isn't it possible to put the SPAT plugin on the last two inserts which are post-fader inserts and set the aux send to pre-fader? I cannot test it now but this is how I remember Nuendo sends works.

On Nuendo manual (p.205, p.213) is says that insert effect 7 & 8 are post fader (post EQ also) and that you could send a track signal pre-insert 7 & 8.

Hope I understood properly what you want to achive. :D

Cheers!
All sends come after the inserts. The "pre-fader" / "post-fader" is exactly that, either sending pre or post fader, not pre or post inserts.
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:21 pm

Fredo wrote:If it's a specific use, I use the reverb as an insert and automate the Dry/wet balance.
For a group of tracks, you can do this through a dedicated group track.
But things can get complicated pretty fast ...


Fredo
Unfortunately a Wet/Dry automation negates the while point of using the SPAT plug.

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Lydiot wrote:
Rucareanu wrote:If I understood correctly...

You want a signal to go to an aux channel before passing through inserts on that track?
Isn't it possible to put the SPAT plugin on the last two inserts which are post-fader inserts and set the aux send to pre-fader? I cannot test it now but this is how I remember Nuendo sends works.

On Nuendo manual (p.205, p.213) is says that insert effect 7 & 8 are post fader (post EQ also) and that you could send a track signal pre-insert 7 & 8.

Hope I understood properly what you want to achive. :D

Cheers!
All sends come after the inserts. The "pre-fader" / "post-fader" is exactly that, either sending pre or post fader, not pre or post inserts.
Yes, exactly.

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Rucareanu » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:37 pm

Lydiot wrote:
Rucareanu wrote:If I understood correctly...

You want a signal to go to an aux channel before passing through inserts on that track?
Isn't it possible to put the SPAT plugin on the last two inserts which are post-fader inserts and set the aux send to pre-fader? I cannot test it now but this is how I remember Nuendo sends works.

On Nuendo manual (p.205, p.213) is says that insert effect 7 & 8 are post fader (post EQ also) and that you could send a track signal pre-insert 7 & 8.

Hope I understood properly what you want to achive. :D

Cheers!
All sends come after the inserts. The "pre-fader" / "post-fader" is exactly that, either sending pre or post fader, not pre or post inserts.
Strage... I asked a friend to do a test and he said that aux send is pre-insert 7&8 when pre-fader is on.

He did the following test:

1. Made a track with a sine wave.
2. Made an FX channel with nothing on it.
3. Put a pitch shift on insert 7 on the track.
4. Sent the track signal to the aux with pre-fade option enabled.
5. Made 2 groups.
6. Direct track output to group 1.
7. Direct FX channel output to group 2.
9. Solo each grup and on grup 1 it played the pitched sound and on group 2 it played the non-piched sound.

Maybe we did something wrong though... :?
It would be sad to find that all inserts are pre-sends... :cry:
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:56 pm

Rucareanu wrote:Strage... I asked a friend to do a test and he said that aux send is pre-insert 7&8 when pre-fader is on.
I stand corrected. I remembered incorrectly and didn't read the manual properly. Inserts 7/8 indeed are after the "pre-sends". You're right.
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:39 pm

Rucareanu wrote: Strage... I asked a friend to do a test and he said that aux send is pre-insert 7&8 when pre-fader is on.
You are correct, but it means that the send has to be pre-fader, which I didn't want.

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:55 pm

DG wrote:
Rucareanu wrote: Strage... I asked a friend to do a test and he said that aux send is pre-insert 7&8 when pre-fader is on.
You are correct, but it means that the send has to be pre-fader, which I didn't want.

DG
But then imagine the routing necessary. You'd have to create several "parallel" paths to accomplish this. Sounds pretty messy to me (talking about programming).
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Rucareanu » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:17 pm

DG wrote:
Rucareanu wrote: Strage... I asked a friend to do a test and he said that aux send is pre-insert 7&8 when pre-fader is on.
You are correct, but it means that the send has to be pre-fader, which I didn't want.

DG

You can always copy the automation for your volume fader to your aux send fader. It will be the same as sending to aux with post-fader, but with the option to pre-aux the desired insert. Hope that helps.
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by DG » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:51 pm

Lydiot wrote:
DG wrote:
Rucareanu wrote: Strage... I asked a friend to do a test and he said that aux send is pre-insert 7&8 when pre-fader is on.
You are correct, but it means that the send has to be pre-fader, which I didn't want.

DG
But then imagine the routing necessary. You'd have to create several "parallel" paths to accomplish this. Sounds pretty messy to me (talking about programming).
I'm no programmer, but if inserts and sends could be put into some sort of chain, then the order for things to be done could be changed at will. However, the question is whether or not it would be of any use to other people.

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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Rucareanu » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:42 pm

DG wrote:I'm no programmer, but if inserts and sends could be put into some sort of chain, then the order for things to be done could be changed at will. However, the question is whether or not it would be of any use to other people.

DG
Well all that is made easier si good for workflow. So, if inserts and sends could be put into some sort of chain, it would be welcomed by most of us. :)
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Big K » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Couldn't RME's Totalmix route the way you want it?
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Re: Sends before Inserts?

Post by Dietz » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi Daryl,

maybe this is what you're looking for:

-> http://www.kvraudio.com/product/sendere ... subminimal

It's from 2004 and remained in beta-phase, obviously, but I remember that I used this plugin on several occasions before Nuendo got sidechains.

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/Dietz

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