Film Re-Recording Mixers?

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Vytis Puronas
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Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by Vytis Puronas » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:36 am

I would like to hear from film re-recording mixers based around Nuendo.

- Is there an equivalent of Pro Tools "Write to All Enabled"? It is super fast since you can copy and paste automation for multiple tracks 'offline' (without engaging playback). Perhaps there is another approach to snapshot automation?

- Is there a similar function to 'Show Automation for Selected Parameter' when you Cmd/Alt+Click on a knob? Can you do this for multiple tracks? This is crucial when you want to see/adjust all reverb sends for foley etc.

- Can you group automation? Is adjusting multiple sends possible? Say, for foley I'd like to take 30 tracks and set all their reverb sends to 20%. In Pro Tools this is easy.

Any other tips or experiences?

*** Here's the story:

I have a project coming up which may require extensive re-conform (picture updates each week). Very likely, picture lock may not happen until final mix. Therefore I am seriously considering choosing Nuendo 10 for editorial.

BUT ... Since I am also the re-recording mixer I thought why not mix it inside Nuendo as well.

Thank you!

ErikG
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by ErikG » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:28 pm

I am one of us.
Nuendo don’t do stuff exactly like PT. so you will have to re-train how you work to become fast and efficient.
To be totally honest, I would not choose a big project as the initiation when switching DAWs unless you have on site knowledgeable support, probably not even then.

But to answer, no there is no write to all enabled, however we have other tools like touch assist and quick link that makes it as fast to do multi selection of punch in of automation.
However it is not the same.

Yes there is a show selected automation parameter, it’s not done by a modifier but using right click.

Group automation yes and no. Not like in PT, but after working a while in Nuendo you are likely to find our way to be as fast if not faster to enter and adjust sends for example.
But one thing is sure. PT grouped editing is better at this time. But interestingly enough I really don’t need to edit automation data in Nuendo that much. In Nuendo we adjust the actual sends, we don’t just modifierclicj it to access its parameter and then just adjust the automation data lanes. We adjust the sends directly. But it will take a little time to get used to coming from PT.

I have two new PT>Nuendo converts that work with us the last six months, neither wants to go back.
Filmlance, a Swedish production company producing drama and feature films.
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by mufi » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:41 am

Vytis Puronas wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:36 am
- Is there an equivalent of Pro Tools "Write to All Enabled"? It is super fast since you can copy and paste automation for multiple tracks 'offline' (without engaging playback). Perhaps there is another approach to snapshot automation?
The only aproach I know is to right click the plugin "Copy [plugin name] settings", Loop automation enabled, enter preview, right click paste settings, punch. Unfortunately it does not work for volume or other data. Maybe it can be done with Global automation snapshot store/apply, but I haven't figured how to use it properly.
- Is there a similar function to 'Show Automation for Selected Parameter' when you Cmd/Alt+Click on a knob? Can you do this for multiple tracks? This is crucial when you want to see/adjust all reverb sends for foley etc.
There is an option in automation panel to reveal parameter on write.
Other than that is "Show/Hide used automation on selected tracks". Pretty cumbersome to scroll trough tens of parameters.
Unfortunately right-clicking the parameter in plugins does not work with all plugins (EQuality for example)
- Can you group automation? Is adjusting multiple sends possible? Say, for foley I'd like to take 30 tracks and set all their reverb sends to 20%. In Pro Tools this is easy.
You can create "Link groups" in the mixer, and select the parameters. Or use Q-Link, permanent or temporary using Alt-Shift.
Nuendo 7.1.35 64bit | Asus Sabretooth P67, i7 2600K, 8gb ddr3 | Windows 10 x64 | RME FF400 | BM Intensity | MCU Pro | Frontier AlphaTrack | Altiverb 7 | Speakerphone 2

Vytis Puronas
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by Vytis Puronas » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:19 pm

Many thanks for your input!

It seems like there are different ways to achieve similar goals - and I'm open to changing my mindset, but I'm kind of hesitant to go ahead still.

I mainly mix feature films and while Pro Tools ain't perfect, the workflow is pretty decent.

- It is very common to have 30-50 foley tracks which all require similar treatment, say, in an interior scene. I group these tracks together, set my reverb send level, basic EQ on a single ONE of these tracks and it gets replicated on ALL of my foley tracks. I can then, if necessary, suspend group and customize individual tracks - reduce reverb for the elements in foreground, tweak EQ here and there, write that automation and move on to the next scene. If I had to do this manually for each of the 50 tracks it would take me 50 times more time. How do you handle these situations in Nuendo? Perhaps there's another approach I haven't though of? Direct Offline Processing could work, but then you can't SEE reverb levels for all 50 tracks at once, right?

- Say you have a scene with cuts switching between inside the club / outside the club multiple times. You write plugin, send, volume automation for INT / EXT across multiple tracks - including dialog, effects, music tracks as well as the send aux/group track reverb automation etc. How do you copy these across the next cuts? In Pro Tools you can go to first INT shot > Suspend Automation > go to second INT shot > select range on All tracks > Click Alt+Cmd+/ (Write to All Enabled) - DONE! Without even engaging playback you can copy automation snapshots across multiple tracks. Although not as elegant I suppose Preview - Punch is the way to go. But does it work across 100+ tracks at once in the way I described? How do you deal with these situations in Nuendo?

- Reveal parameter on write is not so useful. In Pro Tools I can Command+Control+Click any parameter and it shows automation for that parameter. Say I want to increase Hi Cut in EQuality, I use that key command to click on parameter - raise the automation line there - and move on. If I add "Alt" key to that key combination - it shows that exact same parameter on ALL tracks! Whether it's send level, EQuality hipass filter cutoff, Reverb decay - as long as all tracks have this same insert or configuration - it shows these parameters immediately. For film mixing I find it very useful and time saving.

If there are no elegant, fast workarounds - Steinberg should build these crucial features into Nuendo.

Thanks for your time!

Best,
Vytis

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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by ErikG » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:29 am

1- Nuendo quicklink is far superior to PT groups in exactly that scenario. With quick link activated (I have it active almost all of the time) whenever you multiselect tracks (or events if you have track selection follows event selection ON) then you just adjust the first track and the rest will be adjusted with it. No need to keep track of what group to activate or suspend to do this. Of course you can use groups (or link as it is called in Nuendo) as well to accomplish this and work like you do in PT but it is much slower and less intuitive.

The grouped editing of existing automation is where PT still has an advantage not in actually writing it.

2- I normally set up scenes like that using preview and fill loop. If you plan ahead you set the same basic setup first and do it all at once, or you can (in stop mode) designate the area to write to, then locate to the position you want to grab settings from, touch those settings and punch it in. Or you can store the punch where you created the settings for the “club” as a stored punch and just recall it when needed.

3- right click a parameter and select show automation for selected parameter instead of using modifier-click.
Last edited by ErikG on Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by ErikG » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:38 am

1- follow up. Quick link means that you can instantly link any channels together, just the primary feet or just all the props but you do not have to create or modify groups to achieve this. It has sped up my mixing a lot.
Filmlance, a Swedish production company producing drama and feature films.
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Dubstage with 4k Christie projection
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Vytis Puronas
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by Vytis Puronas » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:21 am

Thank you Erik. Many thanks for taking the time to reply!

Quick link sounds like a very relevant function. I need to dig in deeper and understand it better. Cool.

I will try to learn more about Preview / Punch snapshot automation system. I'm OK with changing my habits as long as I can achieve similar results.

One more question - is there a way to smooth automation edits? Say after automation Punch In I have a jump in volume and I would like to make it fade over a selected range? In Pro Tools you can make a selection extending a bit before/after that point and press X (cut). It adds new automation points at beginning and end of selection and deletes anything inside thus creating a glide. I guess that it should also be possible in Nuendo?

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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by ErikG » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:57 pm

Vytis Puronas wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:21 am
One more question - is there a way to smooth automation edits? Say after automation Punch In I have a jump in volume and I would like to make it fade over a selected range? In Pro Tools you can make a selection extending a bit before/after that point and press X (cut). It adds new automation points at beginning and end of selection and deletes anything inside thus creating a glide. I guess that it should also be possible in Nuendo?
No that feature is still missing in Nuendo unfortunately.
There are ways to do it, but it really is a backwards way to accomplish it, so I wont mess with your head with that at this time.
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by Vytis Puronas » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:58 pm

Much appreciated Erik. Thanks!

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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:40 pm

Vytis,

One thing I'd add since this is to a large extent about saving time; don't forget that Nuendo has freely assignable key commands and that there's also a macro function (with macros triggered by assigned keys).

So if time permits there are definitely ways to figure out ways to get around some things that seem inconvenient at first, and key commands and macros may very well help...

Also, thanks to Erik for sharing!
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by ErikG » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:51 pm

Me and Steven both actually have had the idea tomake some videos/tutorials on some things. Wether it will ever happen is anyones guess.
In the mean time, do look at Ashley Shepherds Nuage videos on youtube. Yes they are Nuage specific but show a lot of nifty features that are related to how Nuendo works, with or without Nuage.
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by Vytis Puronas » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:59 pm

Great information.
I've now got an eLicenser key so will be giving Nuendo 10 Trial a spin in the next few days.
Off to watch Ashley Shepherd's videos tonight.
Thanks.

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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by mufi » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:24 am

Still got 45 minutes of trial so I tried the N10 mixer snapshot function in conjunction with Automation Loop and Preview and already written automation.
It seems it works only for insert plugins, regardless of Snapshot Settings.
It even warns it will delete Insert Automation, but when preview is enabled, it just punches the automation in snapshot so that's good. When preview is not enabled it does nothing, insert automation rests in place, so why that warning?
Volume and send automation are not punched, why?
This would be a very useful function if it would work consistent with Preview and Punch workflow.
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:14 pm

Have you tried with touch-assist enabled? I don't know if that solves it, but it's worth a try.

Link to manual entry on that:

https://steinberg.help/nuendo/v8/en/cub ... ist_c.html
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by mufi » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:21 pm

My N10 trial expired so I have no means to test touch-assist. However it's weird that after punching a snapshot the automation value for volume and send level is modified but the control isn't touched. So when playing back it jumps back at previous value.
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by ErikG » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:54 pm

A easy (but stupid) way to get further demo time is to buy another dongle. Or if you ask for it I am sure a reseller will lend you a NFR license on loan. When I started 10+ years ago that was not a problem back then, at least If you are serious about Nuendo.

Where are you located in the world?
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by mufi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:04 am

I am in Romania. I might order a new eLicenser, since mine just suddenly came apart recently, and I had to tape it. That is also stupid :)

I can barely wait until 10.2 and the ARA2 version of AutoAlign Post comes out, because if that works flawlessly there is no reason to hold on to N7.
I worked in Nuendo for the last 10 years, only recently had to move to PT due to collaboration.
Imho Nuendo is vastly superior in terms of editing ergonomics, automation editing, reliability (excelent delay compensation, audio and video engine) and media management (not counting in integrated Re-Conform, MediaBay, ADR, audio align, Control Room, etc.) .
However I will miss some PT features, like "Paste to Selection", Automation Write to All, Clip and Track grouping, ease of RX workflow.
I guess you just cant have it all in one software.
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by ErikG » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:22 pm

I do hope we can get it all in one application some day. In Nuendo that is :-)
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Re: Film Re-Recording Mixers?

Post by Yellowcab » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:51 pm

Vytis, if you can come over for a couple of days in Paris, you're welcome to sit in on a mix with me.
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