Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

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Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by hesca116 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:39 pm

Hello!

First of all, yes. I have asked about this on the Celemony side. But if anyone here knows please do share it with us.

1. Will Melodyne ARA within Cubase allow for tempo assignment? At the moment, the button "Confirm as File Tempo" does nothing. I thought it would transfer Melodyne's tempo map over to Cubase's tempo track, but it actually does nothing. Melodyne's manual describes that exact behavior:

"The functions in Melodyne’s Tempo menu are not yet supported by Cubase and therefore have no effect."

So my question is: will these functions ever be supported? Who has to take action for that to happen, Celemony or Steinberg?

Here is a video of how the function should work; and below, the Melodyne manual where it says Cubase does "not yet" support it.

Tempo detection in Studio ONE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix1FKDtfiUs&t=6m43s

Melodyne usar manual - "at the moment, there is no tempo detection"
http://helpcenter.celemony.com/hc-2/doc ... env=cubase

2. Audio to MIDI. In Cubase you have to export the MIDI from Melodyne and then reimport it back to Cubase. Studio ONE allows to drag-and-drop to convert audio to MIDI. Will anything like this be featured in Cubase?

Here is how it works on Studio One

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix1FKDtfiUs&t=10m20s

I know Cubase converts audio to MIDI, but DNA takes this function to a whole other level. Same with tempo detection.

Thanks!

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:24 am

welcome to the club ! :(
I already posted twice about this sad omission.
will Steinberg settle for being clearly outclassed by Presonus, in such an obvious, important matter ?
with all that marketing blurb about "The reference standard for music production software", you'd expect an implementation that's at least equal to the competition, if not better, right :?:
I would not complain about the pitching functionality so much, as Variaudio is a really serious alternative (unless you need polyphonic), but the stock tempo detection in Cubase can't even read a click track properly, let alone anything musical ...
yes, there's the manual method, if you have the patience of a saint, and time to burn. :ugeek:
oh well, let's hope for a quick and thorough upgrade within the 10.0 cycle !
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Funkybot » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:49 pm

I suspect those features are coming. If not 10.0.40 then 10.5. But then again, you never know.

That said, In my experience, Cubase's tempo detection is pretty good as-is so I can understand it not being a priority for day one. But yeah, it should work with Melodyne. Sometimes Cubase is good enough. Melodyne is usually pretty good. I can see one working where the other doesn't.

Now, I've never had great results with audio to MIDI in Melodyne. I've tried it with vocals a few times and It always required enough clean-up that it was just easier to figure out the part and play it manually. So again, I'd like to see it work just because it should, but having used this feature in the past elsewhere, I'm not really missing it.

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:19 pm

Funkybot wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:49 pm
That said, In my experience, Cubase's tempo detection is pretty good as-is
really ?
mind telling me your trick ?
here's how it doesn't work for me :
basic 4/4 click track, clean metronome sound, the "1" is noticeably louder than the other 3.
tempo fluctuating between e.g. 100 & 110, like a real drummer.
it doesn't get any easier than that.
I select the click track, perform tempo detection, et voila - nothing really aligns. :evil:
and we're still @ stupid 1/4 ... :roll:
take Melodyne in comparison - it eats a piano- or acoustic guitar piece like nobody's business :!:
ok, it'll need the occasional offbeat correction or other small fry, let's award it 85-90%, ime.
Cubase doesn't even crack the 20% mark here ...
that's a biggie, if you often deal with live instruments.

on the other hand, I've had decent results converting simple monophonic basslines to MIDI in Cubase.
just saying, ymmv,
Rhino
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by hesca116 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:22 pm

Rhino wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:19 pm
Funkybot wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:49 pm
That said, In my experience, Cubase's tempo detection is pretty good as-is
really ?
mind telling me your trick ?
here's how it doesn't work for me :
basic 4/4 click track, clean metronome sound, the "1" is noticeably louder than the other 3.
tempo fluctuating between e.g. 100 & 110, like a real drummer.
it doesn't get any easier than that.
I select the click track, perform tempo detection, et voila - nothing really aligns. :evil:
and we're still @ stupid 1/4 ... :roll:
take Melodyne in comparison - it eats a piano- or acoustic guitar piece like nobody's business :!:
ok, it'll need the occasional offbeat correction or other small fry, let's award it 85-90%, ime.
Cubase doesn't even crack the 20% mark here ...
that's a biggie, if you often deal with live instruments.

on the other hand, I've had decent results converting simple monophonic basslines to MIDI in Cubase.
just saying, ymmv,
Rhino
I have to agree with Rhino here.

I was blown away by Melodyne's tempo detection precision. DNA makes it possible. Whereas with Cubase you have to bend backwards to make the tempo organically pulse with the natural fluctuation of live played music.

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by mr.roos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:06 am

OK, I'm confused as to what Melodyne is actually doing that is better than adding a Tempo track to Cubase?

Let's say you have that performance that drifts from 100-110 bpm. The Cubase Tempo track will nail this every time. However looking at Melodyne I see variations, yes, but I'm not clear that Melodyne is creating a Tempo track that it transfers to the Studio ONE DAW in the same way that the Cubase Tempo track does? Does it? And then moving past this question, if the Melodyne program visually maps the recorded track exactly, tempo changes and all, what does it matter that you are editing a track that Melodyne produces a tempo track for? Aren't the blobs time-aligned to the track in Cubase?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish that you think Melodyne can do better than Cubase?
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by hesca116 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:08 am

Well,
This is my objective:
Say I have a recording of a live performance. And I want to create a tempo map that follows the music. If this is feasible, then I can use Cubase to record overdubs and add virtual instruments very easily. All this material would breathe rhythmically with the music instead of getting adjusted to a constant tempo grid. Due to polyphonic detection, Melodyne's tempo detection is almost flawless because it bends around the pulse of the performance. It is by far superior to Cubase's in my opinion.

If I could have Melodyne's tempo map within Cubase via ARA, then it would save me tens of hours worth of manually creating this tempo map on Cubase.

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by mbsmike » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:44 am

I thought you could bring your song into Melodyne standalone then export the tempo track and import into Cubase?
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:10 am

mr.roos wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:06 am
What exactly are you trying to accomplish that you think Melodyne can do better than Cubase?
create that tempo map from an existing track with free timing, i.e. not following a click.
think about collaborations, live recordings, client material ... :idea:
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:19 am

mbsmike wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:44 am
I thought you could bring your song into Melodyne standalone then export the tempo track and import into Cubase?
you can in theory, but a) you don't have the context in Melodyne, and b) I have not found a safe way yet of aligning the imported tempo with my tracks. It's always fiddly ...
in S1, Melodyne / ARA is locked to the host, and so is the generated tempo track. 8-)

ymmv,
Rhino
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by mr.roos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:22 am

OK, I'm still confused. Have you used the Tempo Track feature in Cubase? It is a flawless tool for mapping out a changing tempo in a live recording. You don't need to commit the recorded tracks to a static tempo grid, the Tempo track follows the pulse of the music. You can punch in and out without changing the pulse/tempo of the live performance. Really, all you have to do is figure out the time signature of the music (4/4, 3/4, 2/4, etc.), create a Tempo track and you're off and running, start adding more tracks, editing, use Melodyne, etc..

As to using the Standalone Melodyne, when you create a Tempo track in Cubase for your project, you can save all of this in Melodyne (create a folder before you save) from Cubase. When you open the file in the Standalone, the Tempo track info is saved in the Melodyne saved file.

And BTW, you mention the Click? When you create a Tempo track, let's say the tempo varies from 90-110 BPM, the Click follows the Tempo track. If bar 21 is 90 BPM, the downbeat click is at the top of bar 21 - and- if bar 22 is 100 BPM, the downbeat click is at the top of bar 22. The Click follows the Tempo track map.
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:54 am

mr.roos wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:22 am
flawless
:?: :?: :?:
mr.roos wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:22 am
And BTW, you mention the Click? When you create a Tempo track, let's say the tempo varies from 90-110 BPM, the Click follows the Tempo track. If bar 21 is 90 BPM, the downbeat click is at the top of bar 21 - and- if bar 22 is 100 BPM, the downbeat click is at the top of bar 22. The Click follows the Tempo track map.
we're talking backwards. :?
I'm referring to an audio click track, that somebody else created to match their free time recordings I need to import.
if I had a drum track, I could use that instead.
unfortunately Cubase doesn't even read that simple click track properly, not even for dumb 1/4 time.

yes, I'm pretty familiar with the tempo track, as I currently have no other choice but manual mapping, bar by bar. :evil:
this gets old quickly, talk about "twelve bar blues" ! :lol:

ymmv,
Rhino

edit :
here's a screenie - Cubase tempo detection at its best :
Image
other sections of the tune look better, but Cubase routinely gets out of whack with a ritardando or similar unethical actions. :roll:
but isn't that exactly the point of tempo mapping ?
mind you, all I want is one working automatic solution, I couldn't care less if it's Melodyne or native Cubase.
Melodyne sets pretty high standards though, in S1. :(
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by mr.roos » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:35 am

Whoa, I think something is very different on your end? Here's a screen shot of a tune loaded into a stereo track on my DAW. I put the time signature in my Project to 4/4 and then set up a 'Detect Tempo' launch. Then I clicked on 'Analyze' in the Tempo Detection Panel. Please look at my screen shot. Unlike your picture shows, my click track matches this 4 minute tune from beginning to end. The clicks match the tune perfectly. I can't understand how you are getting your results. We must be doing something differently?

Can you see the variance on the meter in the Tempo Track? Starting at bar 6 it reads '133', then bar 7 @ '125', then bar 8 @ '130', and bar 9 @ '122', etc. and on and on, no errors, the click is right there.
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Tempo Track.PNG
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:45 pm

mr.roos wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:35 am
Whoa, I think something is very different on your end? Here's a screen shot of a tune loaded into a stereo track on my DAW. I put the time signature in my Project to 4/4 and then set up a 'Detect Tempo' launch. Then I clicked on 'Analyze' in the Tempo Detection Panel. Please look at my screen shot. Unlike your picture shows, my click track matches this 4 minute tune from beginning to end. The clicks match the tune perfectly. I can't understand how you are getting your results. We must be doing something differently?

Can you see the variance on the meter in the Tempo Track? Starting at bar 6 it reads '133', then bar 7 @ '125', then bar 8 @ '130', and bar 9 @ '122', etc. and on and on, no errors, the click is right there.
thanks for your example, looks much better indeed.
I do it exactly like you wrote, what other way would there be ?
even from an empty fresh project, @ 120 - results are reproduceable on both my machines (W7/64, 32GB, C10.0.30, 5820k @ 4.5 / 6850k @ 4.3)
as you see above, that click track is as clean as it gets - Melodyne laughs itself silly when reading it in S1, and doesn't breakout in sweat over a piano- or picked acoustic guitar either, even a full mix usually turns out pretty much correct (give or take a few minor tweaks).
thanks,
Rhino

audio alignment doesn't really work here either, maybe there's a connection ?
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by hesca116 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:04 pm

Rhino wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:19 am
mbsmike wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:44 am
I thought you could bring your song into Melodyne standalone then export the tempo track and import into Cubase?
you can in theory, but a) you don't have the context in Melodyne, and b) I have not found a safe way yet of aligning the imported tempo with my tracks. It's always fiddly ...
in S1, Melodyne / ARA is locked to the host, and so is the generated tempo track. 8-)

ymmv,
Rhino
+1 Its possible in theory but its also never without its own complications. The whole point of ARA is to not need to use melodyne standalone anymore.

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by mr.roos » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:14 pm

I have Snap to Grid Crossing on and Snap to Grid off. Same for you?
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:00 pm

mr.roos wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:14 pm
I have Snap to Grid Crossing on and Snap to Grid off. Same for you?
thanks for the idea, tried all 4 options, makes no difference.
we're talking snap to zero crossing, right ?

correct me if I'm wrong, but would these not only apply to editing audio ?
afaics, what we're doing here is merely manipulating the grid, not touching the audio itself.

thanks anyway,
Rhino
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by mr.roos » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:16 pm

Alright, Rhino. I'm not your guy to sort this, but there are plenty who can. It's something simple, believe it, this function in Cubase is a rock. What I would do is create a new post and ask other forum members why your Tempo analyzer is not performing as it should. Post your picture and skip the frustration part of your story - we've all been there.. :) Someone will sort this quickly and you will have a laugh about this someday. All the best
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Rhino » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:41 pm

well, it works, somewhat.
with easy files.
it just does not work good enough to be professionally usable.
Melodyne on the other hand does perfectly - in S1.
so there's the answer ...
we're back to the beginning of the discussion - ARA needs to be properly integrated.
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by mr.roos » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:59 am

Alright, you want ARA. But seriously, the audio sample I used to show what the Cubase Tempo track can do is right off a CCR album, a professionally mixed song (that was recorded without a click track). Using the stereo mix of a four piece band, Tempo track had absolutely no problem discerning accurately the pulse/quarter note beat of the entire song.
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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by hesca116 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:19 pm

Rhino wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:41 pm
well, it works, somewhat.
with easy files.
it just does not work good enough to be professionally usable.
Melodyne on the other hand does perfectly - in S1.
so there's the answer ...
we're back to the beginning of the discussion - ARA needs to be properly integrated.
Rhino
I have to agree with Rhino here.
AFAIK, Cubase detects transients as hitpoints, and uses those to detect the tempo. However, when the material doesn't include clear transients the tempo detection precision goes down the toilet. You are obligated to use a track with clear transients.

Melodyne, on the other hand, detects tempo via its DNA technology to detect not only the transients, but the pitch changes of every note. If that weren't enough, it also uses information from all tracks, whereas Cubase's tempo detection can only be triggered by a selection consisting of a single event.

I´ve used Melodyne to detect the tempo of tracks with subtle transients such as chamber or choral music, and the tempo detection is still about 85% correct. Not perfect, but waaaay better than what Cubase can do.

So yes, if you´re detecting tempo right from a drum track, then Cubase is up to the challenge, but not every piece of music has a rhythmic backing track of this kind.

I´ve always thought, that the day Steinbrg develops something like DNA into variaudio, Melodyne will go down. But so far, that's very much not the case.
Last edited by hesca116 on Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by hesca116 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:28 pm

And also,

In my opinion, Melodyne's handling of signature changes and tempo subdivision changes is more intuitive. Maybe I have to fiddle more with Cubase, given that "I live there".

I think the main source of these difficulties, is that the user manual doesn't really explain how to handle tempo detection properly within a specific context. Steinberg should embark in the production of training videos such as the ones on the Celemony website. Of course its a staggering project because Cubase is freaking huge, but I'm just saying, having Steinberg's official approach to tempo detection would help A LOT.

But the approach would have to go beyond "lets detect the tempo of this drum track". This video would have to include subjects like ritardandos, types of subdivision, signature changes and tempo changes, double metre, triple metre, polirhythm, etc.

JMTC

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by jimknopf » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:19 pm

@mr.roos
Glad it works for you, but here on Cubase Pro 10.3 it rather doesn't.

With most audio tracks (even those with quite a clean beat throughout),I get funny spikes (up and down) in the generated tempo track all over the place, and all these (not at all working) spikes completely spoil the result. Editing them manually one by one would take much too much time, so the function doesn't really work here either.

As long as I don't find a reason and a solution for this erratic behavior, I have no other choice than hope for better Melodyne ARA integratin like the OP as well.

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Puma0382 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:26 pm

hesca116 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:19 pm
However, when the material doesn't include clear transients the tempo detection precision goes down the toilet. You are obligated to use a track with clear transients.
And yet, there again, I'm looking hard at that screenshot @Rhino posted above... Hmm... ;)
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System 2:- Win10 32bit, Q6600 2.4 Ghz, 4Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS, Delta 1010LT; Cubase Pro v8.0.40, WaveLab Pro v9.1.0, Komplete10, StylusRMX

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Re: Cubase ARA with Melodyne: tempo detection / audio to MIDI functions are missing

Post by Puma0382 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:29 pm

jimknopf wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:19 pm
As long as I don't find a reason and a solution for this erratic behavior, I have no other choice than hope for better Melodyne ARA integratin like the OP as well.
In the meantime, just noticed this post from @Hippo in the other thread - could be a useable solution for the time being...
viewtopic.php?p=883330#p883330

(seems JMTC has tested to great joy..!)
System 1:- Win10 64bit, Gigabyte H81M m/board, Intel i7 4790 3.6Ghz, 16Gb RAM, NVIDIA GTX 750 Ti, 2 x 22" HD monitors; Steinberg UR44; Cubase Pro v10.0.40, WaveLab Pro v10, Studio One v4.5.3, Addictive Drums 2, Komplete 12, StylusRMX

System 2:- Win10 32bit, Q6600 2.4 Ghz, 4Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS, Delta 1010LT; Cubase Pro v8.0.40, WaveLab Pro v9.1.0, Komplete10, StylusRMX

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