Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

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high5ths
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Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:59 pm

Hi. This looks like a similar question to this thread, but I don't see a solution there. I'm going to try to explain the situation clearly.

I want to have a custom master page with a graphics frame which I can then change on a layout-by-layout basis. I had hoped that I could put the most common graphic into the master page (as a "default" graphic) and then replace it on a case-by-case basis (local master page override). However, when I tried this, the moment I changed the graphic on a single page of a part layout, the master page changed to include this graphic. (I never expect a master page to change as a result of an action within a layout; this seems really surprising.) So, I went into the master page and deleted the graphics frame to start over; I left the graphics frame empty and tried again. But the same thing happened; within the Flute 1 layout, I changed the graphic, and the master page now contained that graphic. I must be misunderstanding some principle of this?

(The reason to use a master page as a starting point is to make sure things remain as consistent as possible whenever I want to use this little graphic. This idea was reinforced by Lillie's recent advice in this thread: "it does sometimes involve making local adjustments (i.e. overrides) but can be very useful to use as a "base", [...snip...] you can get most of the way there with the master page, then tweak.")

I know this is hard to explain. Here's a low-res GIF where I try to show it (HQ version here until Dec 2019). On the left, the master page with the blank graphics frame. On the right, the part where I am editing it. I replace the frame with the graphic I want, and on the left you see the master page change at the last second. (Sorry it's quick.) Does this mean I need to delete and replace the graphics frame every time I want to edit it? I think I've read everything in the manual and tried to watch all the videos about layouts, and I'm still confused.

(While I'm here, why does it sometimes take multiple tries to get the file chooser for a graphic? I double-click, I press return... sometimes it doesn't work for a long time.)

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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Craig F » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:15 pm

I remember having this issue in the past as well. If I recall, I ended up adding the graphics frames locally rather than in the Master Page.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:19 pm

Craig F wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:15 pm
I remember having this issue in the past as well. If I recall, I ended up adding the graphics frames locally rather than in the Master Page.
Yes, doing it locally would solve my problem, but isn't this the whole point of master pages—to provide "templates" for page layouts, that can be overridden when necessary? It doesn't make any sense to me that a master page would change because of a local page override. I'm hopeful it's a bug. This isn't the way music or text frames work; master pages remain invariable and allow local overrides. Graphics frames should do the same.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Craig F » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:29 pm

For the layouts where you want a different graphic - delete the graphics frame and add a new one for that layout. The other layouts should then be unaffected.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:45 pm

Right, right, thank you, I understand *how* to do this, but I'm saying I don't think this should be how this works! The whole point is to avoid having to delete and add frames over and over again. If I use a blank frame on my master layout, I should be able to replace it in individual layouts without the master page changing.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Derrek » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:05 pm

It seems to me that if you want a different graphic on each part, it is unreasonable to expect the same master frame to hold them all; but what would happen if your master page contained a gap where you wanted your frame to be. Could you then add a layout frame in the each empty slot as you entered the custom graphic?
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by pianoleo » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:07 pm

I don't think it's unreasonable at all - the same music frame in the master page handles different music on each page, in each layout...
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:10 pm

Derrek wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:05 pm
It seems to me that if you want a different graphic on each part, it is unreasonable to expect the same master frame to hold them all; but what would happen if your master page contained a gap where you wanted your frame to be. Could you then add a layout frame in the each empty slot as you entered the custom graphic?
Yes, I tried putting an empty graphics frame in the master page. That is the only way I can imagine including a "gap" of precisely the right size (14.2x10mm). What other way of including a rectangular gap do you have?

I don't need a different graphic in each part. There are a bunch of possible graphics that could go into the same exact position in many different pages, in many different parts. In a given part, the graphic might be different from one page to the next, or it might be the same. The point of allowing a blank graphics frame in the master page should be to allow me to choose that graphic wherever it appears—the same way an empty text frame would allow me to put different text on every page, or an empty music frame would change on every page.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by VIPStephan » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:02 am

Yeah, I’ve also experienced unintuitive UI behavior with graphic frames in that you can’t revert changes within those frames by going back a step (Ctrl/Cmd-Z). So, I conclude that graphics within graphic frames are kind of treated as an independent thing that you can’t really influence from within Dorico, i. e. edits to the graphics aren’t part of the document history etc.

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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Derrek » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:19 pm

This would be my approach to the parts layout.

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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by musicmaven » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:15 pm

Dear high5ths,

One way to do this is to set up the Master Page of the Default Part with the default graphic frame and graphic that you will use for most of the parts.

Then, for each part that uses a particular different graphic “custom graphic 1” for some of the layouts, “custom graphic 2” for certain layouts, etc. you will create a custom part layout under Master Page Sets in Engraving Mode (see cg1, cg2, in masterpagesets.png). You create these by first clicking once on Default Part, press the plus sign, then rename to your liking.

Then, for all the layouts that use “custom graphic 1”, In Layout Options, Page Setup, Master page set, choose “cg1” for example (see trumpetcg1.png).

For all the layouts that use “custom graphic 2”, in Layout Options, Page Setup, Master page set, choose “cg2” for example (see cellocg2.png).

For all other layouts, they should already be automatically set to use the default part (see flutedefaultpart.png).

For each layout type, just double-click on the graphic frame and choose the graphic you want. You only have to set this once for each custom graphic. All layouts that are assigned to the custom part layouts will behave correctly and not change the default part master page.
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Last edited by musicmaven on Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by musicmaven » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:16 pm

(PLEASE IGNORE) Addtional attchments.... (sorry just realized these attachments aren't necessary) :)
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Last edited by musicmaven on Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by musicmaven » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:17 pm

Additional attachments again
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flutedefaultpart.png
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by musicmaven » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:18 pm

last attachment
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:58 pm

Thanks for your suggestions, Derrek and musicmaven. Yes, are indeed methods of working around this. (Derrek's solution, with its multiple music frames, is totally unsuited to my situation, though yes, it does make a hole of the correct size; the problem with musicmaven's solution is that there are hundreds of possible graphics I might need to use for this, which would require hundreds of master pages. It's not that each individual part has a specific graphic. It's that every single page might have a slightly different graphic. Maybe I will use this for the 10 most common graphics, but that won't cover every situation so I don't know that it's worth the trouble.)

I am still hopeful that this will be correctly logged as a bug in Dorico. This is not how graphics frames on master pages *should* work. It's inconsistent not only with the general concept of a master page in page layout software (which should not change as a result of local overrides and with the way music and text frames work in Dorico specifically).
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:56 am

At the moment, the program is working as designed. Graphics frames do not currently have the additional level of abstraction that music and text frames do, namely that they refer to one or more text or music flows and can contain different instances when appearing in different layouts. However, we recognise that this would of course be useful and it's something we will no doubt return to in a future version.

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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:14 pm

Okay, then I respectfully suggest this should be reflected in the documentation. I don’t find it at all obvious that graphics frames would behave in such a fundamentally different way from the other two types of frames, so the fact that this is working the way you intend is... surprising, to say the least.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Lillie Harris » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:38 pm

I've made a note of this and will look to add some additional info somewhere sensible in the docs :)

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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:15 pm

The use case we were designing for when adding graphics frames to master pages was (obviously) to show a consistent graphic on all pages using that master page, as is commonly needed for publisher/project logos etc., not to allow you to show a different graphic on every page but in the same position, which is not something that we anticipated.

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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:09 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:15 pm
The use case we were designing for when adding graphics frames to master pages was (obviously) to show a consistent graphic on all pages using that master page, as is commonly needed for publisher/project logos etc., not to allow you to show a different graphic on every page but in the same position, which is not something that we anticipated.
Sure, this makes sense as one use case. But if this is the only possible behavior (at the moment), it seems that it shouldn't be possible to change a graphic placed on a master page inside an individual page. For anybody with years of experience with Indesign/Quark/etc., I think it seems bonkers for a master page to change as a result of an action on an individual page. I hope some day graphics frames become equal to text and music frames, but in the meantime, their limited nature should be really obvious in limiting our editing ability. If a graphics frame is created on an individual page, it should only be editable there; if a graphics frame is created on a master page, it should only be editable there. (At least right now... I can't help that I still remember your introduction to master pages in the Development Diary, which quoted Indesign's help pages! :) )

Thank your for explaining where you were coming from, though — it makes me feel a little less crazy. When graphics start changing around behind my back, I start to suspect I've been sleep-engraving.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:02 pm

high5ths wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:09 am
If a graphics frame is created on a master page, it should only be editable there.
If a text frame is created on a master page, you can edit the content outside the master page - but the edits only override the one instance of the text frame.

And of course you can edit the contents of MUSIC frames on the master page outside of the master page - in fact you never do anything else!

I don't think the issue is "editing the contents of a graphics frame on the master page outside the master page," but the fact that the edits aren't local.

Whatever, Daniel has explained why we got to where we are.

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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by high5ths » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:48 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:02 pm
high5ths wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:09 am
If a graphics frame is created on a master page, it should only be editable there.
If a text frame is created on a master page, you can edit the content outside the master page - but the edits only override the one instance of the text frame.

And of course you can edit the contents of MUSIC frames on the master page outside of the master page - in fact you never do anything else!

I don't think the issue is "editing the contents of a graphics frame on the master page outside the master page," but the fact that the edits aren't local.

Whatever, Daniel has explained why we got to where we are.
It feels like you're just picking a fight, Rob... do you disagree that it's confusing the way it currently works—that a local edit does not stay local? My point ("it should only be editable there") is that because graphics frames behave differently from music and text frames, the way we edit them should reflect that. I'd prefer they work the same as the other types of frames! But they don't (and yes, I'm grateful Daniel explained why they work that way) and since they don't, they shouldn't be edited exactly the same as other types of frames. In my opinion.
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Re: Graphics frames keep propagating back from layouts to master pages?

Post by macerio » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:40 pm

I have the same problem. Here is a good reason (to my point of view to overthink the behaviour like it is now). I make arrangements for saxes, clarinet and flute. So I have to make a Title Page for each instrument with all information in tokens. Now it comes to the point, where I have an alto sax on master page 1, a tenor sax on master page 2. As well I have duo versions with piano. So I have to make 4 more pages with the picrutes (solo instrumetn and piano) And of course I have a piano part with a title page as well. Maybe that is an exotic issue ;-)
At the moment I have to make 9 master pages. Since I could not copy master pages, I have to do it 4 times. And as the formatting of text is not copyied, it takes a lot of time.

There is one more thing: When I insert a graphic in a master page it looks different to one I add in a normal page. See Screenshots:
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