Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

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digitig
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Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by digitig »

Dorico has stopped recognizing "Pizz" markings on string parts. It used to work, and I'm not aware of having changed anything. I'm using NotePerformer; the problem goes away if I switch to the HSSE+HSO (Pro) playback template. How do I get NotePerformer pizzicato playback back?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

First make sure you're using the most up-to-date expression map for NotePerformer, which you can do by going to Play > Expression Maps, selecting the NotePerformer expression map from the list on the left-hand side, and clicking the "reset to factory" button.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Vaughan Schlepp »

Next to the Creator field there's a version field. It should read 12.
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digitig
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by digitig »

Done that, and yes, it says 12. No difference in playback.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Can you attach the project here so we can take a look?

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by digitig »

It's 1.6 Mb - I'll try to reproduce the issue in a smaller file when I get a moment. Watch this space.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by digitig »

Ok, I've tried creating a new project, and pizzicato playback is fine in it, so the problem is with the specific file, not Dorico in general. Rather than posting something so big to the forum - and before I'm happy to show it to the world :) - should I raise a support ticket or is there someone at Dorico I could email it to?

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by MarcLarcher »

The easy way to post a project here is to remove the audio data, i.e. choosing the silent playback template. If the project has copyright issue and cannot be shared online, try deleting everything except the part that exhibits the problem, or send it to Daniel or Ulf…
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by R Pearl »

Is it possible there are other playing techniques used? For me, NP has some problems if there is more than one directive in play: mutes with sense vibrato - I have to remove the mute directive to get the non-vibrato to work. Perhaps there is something like that prior to your invoking the pizz?

(Fun fact: typing pizz. auto corrects to pizza. Is someone telling me it's time for lunch?)

digitig
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by digitig »

Sorry for the late response - I've been AFK for a couple of weeks (both sorts of keyboard). Unfortunately, if I delete the surrounding material, the problem goes away. No, there are no copyright problems, I would just have preferred not to go public until I'd proofread it and fixed all my embarrassing copyist blunders!

I can't see how to upload a file here, so I've put it in a shared dropbox file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnpjqqpv92c2i ... orico?dl=0.

The problem manifests at bar 48.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Andre »

I noticed the issue with NotePerformer that pizz does play back, but playing on the midi keyboard while in a pizz staff, is sounding legato.
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by digitig »

That's not the problem I have, Andre - it's strictly playback of the Dorico file, even with no MIDI source plugged in.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by R Pearl »

Well, it's not often I can correctly diagnose a problem, but today's the day: it's the con sord indication in bar 6. As I had indicated above, NP sometimes has trouble with two playing techniques. What puzzled me was that your violoncello basso does play the pizza; and it has no con sord direction. Remove those and the pizz does play.

Unrelated, there is an odd surge in dynamics at the downbeat of 47. Can't figure that one out.

Ok, so 1 out of 2...

Hope that helps.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Insert an extra "nat." playing technique immediately before the pizz. technique and that should take care of it. You can hide the "nat." via Properties so that it doesn't get printed for the player.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by digitig »

Thanks, R. Pearl and Daniel - yes, that fixes it. I wonder whether the composer also wanted the violoncello basso to be con sordino too, although the manuscript isn't marked such.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by andrewpeters »

I have been having the same problem, but as far as I can tell, it's not a question of two playing techniques simultaneously. Just going between Arco and pizz. causes this problem. (I don't think there are other playing techniques involved). When I insert the "nat." it takes care of the problem, but that seems like a workaround. I didn't have this problem before updating to Dorico 3. Is this a bug that will be ironed out, or is there something I am missing? Thanks!

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

If you're using NotePerformer, try going to Play > Expression Maps, selecting the 'NotePerformer' expression map in the list, then click 'Reset to Factory' at the bottom of the dialog. This will update the NotePerformer expression map to the latest installed version.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by andrewpeters »

I'm so sorry - I don't see "Reset to Factory" at the bottom of the dialog I'm looking at. I see Reset to Library Defaults, Import Library, Export Library and Import Cubase Expression Map. What am I doing wrong? Thank you!

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Sorry, Andrew, I do mean 'Reset to Library Defaults' rather than 'Reset to Factory'.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by andrewpeters »

Thank you very much!

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by nmrz »

Hello, I'm not using note performer, just full Halion library that comes with Dorico 3, but having the same problem with arco to pizz playback:
In the double bass, it's arco for a few bars from the start, only playing technique messages are 'tasto' (my own addition) and 'non vib,', but when we get to pizz, it still plays arco. two screen shots attached of the score and the play/midi score views

I tried to solve it by adding nat. in the rest before the pizz as suggested above and elsewhere. This didn't work, it's also not useful for other places where I don't have a rest before the change.

I deleted the midi note while in play mode, as I could see that the playing technique was still nat. despite there being a pizz. message in the score. Weirdly, as there was a second pizz note, the pizz instruction extended from the second forward to the position of the first (despite it now being a rest), then when I wrote back in the first note, it played correctly - but only once... now it's broken again.

If this problem/bug is trivial, and known, when can it be fixed?
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

I believe you'll find that if you select the "non vib." playing technique and set the 'Suppress playback' property in the Common group, the pizz. will start playing without the need for the hidden 'nat'.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by nmrz »

Thanks Daniel, but this didn't fix it. Can you explain more broadly what's causing the problem re playback configuration?

Also, is there a way to write multiple playing techniques in one line, as you could do in Sib, e.g. 'ord. non vibr.'?

It would be a pain if I have to create every single combination that I'd like to use on the fly e.g. pizz non vib, arco molto tasto etc

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

It's all to do with the knowledge Dorico has about the different dimensions of playing techniques, and whether they can be added on top, or whether they need to replace the ones that are already there. This is something that musicians understand pretty easily based on their learned experience, but which is a bit harder to codify for a computer. Dorico doesn't know from first principles that, say, arco and pizz. can't be played at the same time, which is why those playing techniques have to be defined as mutually exclusive with each other in the expression map. Adding "non vib." should ideally make no difference to playback if no playing technique is defined in the current expression map, but when you write "non vib." in the score, that's added to the set of active playing techniques, so when it then comes across "pizz.", it's actually looking for "non vib.+pizz.", and it won't find that. It likewise doesn't know that of those two instructions, "pizz." is more important than "non vib.", which is something we would all understand, and if it can't find the requested combination, it will fall back on nothing.

We have plans to enrich Dorico's understanding of this, and to provide the user with greater control by creating further ways to disambiguate these kinds of instructions, so that Dorico will be able to understand that things like vibrato are in a sense unrelated from the macro-level playing technique that specifies whether to use the bow or to pluck, etc.

In the meantime, there are a number of ways you can approach this, if you wish. Suppressing the playback of a playing technique that has no audible effect is one. Inserting a hidden "nat." is another. Defining a combination in the expression map that produces the desired sound, e.g. duplicating the existing "Pizzicato" entry but making it use the combination "Pizzicato + non vibrato" is another. Adding "non vibrato" and "pizzicato" to the same mutual exclusion group is another.

Regarding showing multiple playing techniques in a single line, there's not a great way to do this at the moment. We have the beginnings of an implementation of this, but it's not exposed to the user at the moment. I think the way it would probably work is that multiple grouped playing techniques at the same position could appear as a comma-separated (or space-separated) list. In the meantime, you might find it preferable to use Shift+X text for some of these instructions, particularly if they don't currently have any effect on playback.

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Re: Pizzicato playback not recognised (Note Performer)

Post by nmrz »

Thanks very much for the detail explanation Daniel. Actually playback is not so important to me - distinguishing arco/pizz is perhaps as far as what I need (i.e. no need for pont or vib playback).

shift+X text will work for now for multiple instructions but I look forward to it being part of playing techniques popover in the future sometime.

I'll play around with the playback commands until it actually plays a pizzicato on the first appearance of the command. It's a bit of a pain though when the idea is so simple.

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