Warning when trying to print parts in concert pitch

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Warning when trying to print parts in concert pitch

Post by lbuckley » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 pm

I hope that in the two and a half years I've been posting to this forum, I have established a reputation for being calm, reasonable, helpful, and above all positive about Dorico to the point of being an unabashed fanboy. But Dorico embarrassed me last night by doing something that is just wrong, and I won't pretend I'm not angry about it.

I passed out a new set of parts to my players and discovered that one of the alto sax parts printed in concert pitch. After spending time this morning that I don't really have, figuring out why it happened, it appears that parts — individual parts — print in whatever state (transposed vs. concert pitch) they were in the last time I viewed them. I'm sorry, but what good is an untransposed part (especially for alto saxophone — a major 6th transposition!) to anybody? Ever?

There is already a thread out there (viewtopic.php?f=246&t=119412) talking about the same issue with regard to accidentally printing scores in concert pitch. Sibelius and, I'm told by a friend, Finale both give you a "do you really mean that?" warning window if you try to print a score in concert pitch.

But parts? Seriously? My personal opinion is that whatever transposed/concert pitch view you were using the last time you looked at a given part should have nothing to do with how it prints. And I feel even more strongly that I should never have to worry about whether or not selected parts are going to be accidentally printed in concert pitch; I don't know why, but somehow that's more infuriating to me than if they had all printed in concert pitch.

In any case, I can say with certainty that from the very earliest days of Finale (I was a v.1.0 Finale user) and in the ten years I used Sibelius, I simply never had to even think about the possibility that a part might print in concert pitch.

I guess I can't take the position that Dorico shouldn't allow us to print parts in concert pitch, but it sure as hell shouldn't do it without giving us a warning window.

PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by pianoleo » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:01 pm

Lew, I don't in any way disagree with the substance of your post, but as an interim measure you might try this:

Go to Layout Options.
Select all part layouts.
Set to Transposed layout.
Apply.
Image

Then select a single part layout.
Select "Part" from the layout type dropdown.
Set as Default.
Close.
Image

Then NEVER touch the Edit > Pitch options with a part layout open.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by lbuckley » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:52 pm

Thanks, Leo. But isn't "NEVER touch the Edit > Pitch options with a part layout open" the part of all of that that really matters?
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by pianoleo » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:58 pm

Nope. There’s the possibility you may have inadvertently set part layouts to be non-transposing by default.

Regardless, I fully see your point. I have my own method of ensuring that I don’t ever print non-transposed parts, but I can see why you’d be mad about the existing functionality.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by lbuckley » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:05 am

OK, Leo, I was pretty sure I hadn't accidentally set the default to non-transposing, but regardless, what you suggested seemed wise, so I did it.

But I also checked all the parts first, and they were all set to Transposed Layout.

I've about decided that the whole thing happened because I somehow hit the keystroke that toggles transposed and concert view on one of the part files. I guess that's one of the dangers of having a single keystroke toggle that back and forth.

Anyway, as always, thanks for the good suggestions.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:28 am

You can delete keyboard shortcuts that you don't like, as well as creating new ones.

For example I've disabled Z and X from zooming in an out, because I keep hitting them by accident in note entry mode, and in any case my brain is programmed to use Ctrl + and Ctrl - like every other app with a zoom option (except Cubase, apparently, which is where the Z and X came from!)

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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by pianoleo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:40 am

I'm pretty sure the only way you get a keyboard shortcut for toggling transposed view is by adding it manually. Either that or I've messed around so much with my keyboard shortcuts that I'm missing a load that were added by the devs in recent versions...
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by lbuckley » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:14 am

No, my keyboard shortcut for the transposed/concert view toggle is through Keyboard Maestro. I'm a keyboard lover, so between shortcuts I've added through Dorico and the 125-130 I've added through KM, things can get more than a little complicated!

How do you know if it's too complicated? If you have to make a KM shortcut that puts a list of your KM shortcuts on the screen. :-)
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by pianoleo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:19 am

Ha. There IS a toggle available natively from the Preferences > Keyboard Shortcuts dialog within Dorico - you don’t need KM for this one - but by default it doesn’t have anything assigned to it.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by billscores » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:39 am

lbuckley wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 pm
it appears that parts — individual parts — print in whatever state (transposed vs. concert pitch) they were in the last time I viewed them. I'm sorry, but what good is an untransposed part (especially for alto saxophone — a major 6th transposition!) to anybody? Ever?
I'm new Dorico. I haven't even printed my first project yet, but I find this topic concerning. I've read three times of dedicated users posting here who have experienced this problem. These are true horror stories. You can sense the feeling of betrayal in the tone of the post, and no one should ever feel betrayed by their software of choice.

I've been known to view individual parts in concert pitch during note entry or proofreading. If I ever have the need to do this, I would hope my software would not discreetly adopt this as my printing preference. That's what's happening here. The users who have experienced this problem are completely unaware it has happened until they are at the concert venue!

At the very least, a warning before printing could prevent this potential horror. But perhaps waiting until printing to tell the user a part has been mistakenly left in concert is not the ideal time to remind the user. i.e. one may have been carefully editing an 'F horn' part in engrave mode, only to discover at the printing stage that all the subtle engrave work, positioning, etc. was performed on a 'concert' part by accident.

Perhaps in addition to a final print warning, our layout lists (wherever they appear in Dorico) could tell us which layouts are 'concert pitch toggled' by color. "Oh look, my Bb clarinet part is in concert right now." This is a constant reminder to address this eventually. I can see it's been altered by it's color, alternately it could be flagged' somehow. The point is, this should be easy to see and correct if desired before printing. Of course, a final print warning message is a well warranted failsafe, but not necessarily the first indicator a user should have that a part has been mistakenly left in concert.

The tiny 'Concert Pitch' text in the lower left of each layout is a far cry from being an indicator of potential tragedy. And let's be honest, these event are tragic in every sense of the word for those who've experienced them.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by eheilner » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:00 pm

A new token indicating the state of transposition - [Concert | Transposed] - might be helpful

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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by Romanos401 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:13 pm

Indeed, I experienced the same thing Christmas Eve: viewtopic.php?f=246&t=151331&hilit=I+got+burned.

I'm really unsure why you're even allowed to print a part at concert pitch for transposing instruments. It really doesn't make any sense to me. I'm sure the powers that be are listening. I'm sorry that this happened to you. Trust me... I know the feeling. I skipped a few heartbeats Christmas Eve.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by Derrek » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 pm

I understand the concern with being surprised, but there are (perhaps arcane) reasons for printing a transposing instrument in concert pitch.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by Claude Lapalme » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:59 pm

Over two years ago, I asked for a warning when deleting a player from a flow if that player had music. It was added later on. I'm sure a simple warning at print time relating to parts and their transposition would be sufficient for this.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by billscores » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:20 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:13 pm
I'm really unsure why you're even allowed to print a part at concert pitch for transposing instruments. It really doesn't make any sense to me.
I've often been asked to produce concert parts for a certain trumpet player. I think having a way to print a transposed part in concert is a good thing. It should be possible, but utterly impossible to do by accident. A simple pre-print warning would do the trick, provided that the warning also includes the names of the layout(s) in question. This seems like a simple and valid request.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by Romanos401 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:25 pm

Fair enough. I definitely appreciate being able to view the concert pitch version; much easier to double check pitches if you don't read transposing scores well (or if you were given a concert score by the composer to engrave!).

But if there are people who ask for them, then fair enough. Although it does seem fair to say that your example is the aberration rather than the rule. (I sure you'd agree.). But to echo you and Claude, yes, a simple warning would be all that it takes.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by lbuckley » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:35 pm

That’s all I’m asking for — a warning prior to printing score OR parts in concert pitch.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:58 am

Just to confirm that I agree a warning would be a good idea. We'll add something along these lines in future, hopefully soon.

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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by lbuckley » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:25 am

Thanks so much, Daniel. As so many of us say so often, I have never experienced such a responsive company to user requests/concerns.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by dankreider » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:44 pm

Lew, this warning dialog is coming in 2.2.10. Just watched the Dorico session today!
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by PF Slow » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:03 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:13 pm
...
I'm really unsure why you're even allowed to print a part at concert pitch for transposing instruments. It really doesn't make any sense to me. ...
Just because it's not something you would use doesn't mean it's not useful to others. It makes perfect sense to me—or did when I was doing studio work—but I am not you.

I am all in favor of some type of indicator so that you can be aware before parts are printed.

Hmmm...lets see... how many are tweaking or correcting a minute after the rehearsal was to begin? Oh c'mon, it's more of us than that! With today's fast printers, it's easier to do.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by lbuckley » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:18 pm

Thanks, Dan.
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by prko » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:29 pm

dankreider wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:44 pm
Lew, this warning dialog is coming in 2.2.10. Just watched the Dorico session today!
The warning message is helpful, but it appears only when printing part layouts.
Could we turn on this feature also for score layout?
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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:29 pm

No, since score layouts may quite legitimately be in either concert or transposed pitch.

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Re: PLEASE FIX THIS NOW!

Post by mducharme » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:09 pm

lbuckley wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:59 pm
In any case, I can say with certainty that from the very earliest days of Finale (I was a v.1.0 Finale user) and in the ten years I used Sibelius, I simply never had to even think about the possibility that a part might print in concert pitch.
I am the TA for an orchestration course and several times I had the situation where students who used Sibelius accidentally turned off transposition in a part and it printed in concert pitch with no warning, and the student did not realize the issue. It is great that the Dorico developers added this feature, but your assumption that this issue cannot happen in Sibelius is not correct.

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