Anyone using Expressions maps?

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t0nes
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Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by t0nes » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:36 am

Hello!

I'd like to know who's working succesfully with expressions maps, becasue it behaves very strange over here.

I'm working on a piece created with Halion Symphonic Orchestra and use the Expressions maps.
For some reason Cubase alternates between different articluations by itself which seems like a bug.
For example: I have a long trhill note on the Oboe in the beginning. Later I have some legato lines, but Cubase then alternates between legato and thrill for an unknown reason which sounds horrible...
This problems occurs on all instruments, random!

I created this composition a couple of years ago, when expressions maps didn't exist. I deleted all midi notes for keyswitching and started placing expressions in the score editor.
Although this method works great, it completely fails because of the faulty expressions Cubase triggers by itself.
I searches the whole project to find any hidden keyswitch notes but can't find any.

Are there users who work with expressions maps without any problems?
Maybe I have to built the composition all over in Cubase 6?

I also sended Steinberg support an e-mail, but as usual I didn't get a response so far, this takes always weeks to get to hear anything, which starts with: did you installed the latest update?

Tom

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vic_france
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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by vic_france » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:56 pm

There should be no problem (at least, not one like the one you describe ;) ) so long as you are using the VST Expression Map which matches the preset for which it was designed. (I presume you are referring to the Steinberg-supplied maps?)
Things to watch out for, though..
1) If you are entering the VST Expression events manually (in the Score/Key Editor), and the articulation is an "Attribute" type rather than a "Direction" type, that articulation is valid only for the note to which it belongs.
2) The first articulation in the VST Expression Map is always the "Default" articulation, so if no articulation is explicitly inserted, then it is the Default articulation that will be used.

Maybe you could upload something to illustrate the problem? (with details of the actual HSO preset used, and with which VST Expression Map)
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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by Renewal » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:29 pm

t0nes wrote:Hello!
I also sended Steinberg support an e-mail, but as usual I didn't get a response so far, this takes always weeks to get to hear anything, which starts with: did you installed the latest update?

Tom
Same here about a different issue, very annoying and also very unprofessional IMO.
Imac i7-2,93Ghz/16GB/10.12.6/C10/Halion Sonic 3/Real LP-Strat-Eight/UX1

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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by t0nes » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:53 pm

Hi Vic!

Do you mean that you import the expression maps from the Steinberg download page?
I made expression maps by importing key switches from Halion Sonic SE and then move "Legato" to the top and re-number with Set Remote Keys. I noticed that when I do this, the first key switch doesn't get a remote, instead it gets three slashes.
The examples in the manual shows the same: no keyswitch but three slashes on the first one.
This does make sense because it's your default keyswitch, but maybe this causes the problem as well?
Because the pre-fab expressions maps do have an input key on the first slot.

When I import the key swithes from the Flute, the first keyswitch is Thrills WT. This doesn't make sense and gives a problem when I want to renumber the key switches. The Thrill WT will get no input key (but three slashes) and will be my default expression. Therfore i move Legato to the top first.

Even when I switch to the pre-fab maps I'd like to renumber the switches close to the playing range because my midi keyboard isn't full range, but maybe I have to ensure that the first slot gets an input key??

About the Attributes: I've set all expressions to "Attribute" sot that staccato's and tremolo's get an indivual symbols in the score, which is great. The only "Direction"s are Arco and Pizzicato which seems logic to me.
The problem is that in case of the Flute/Oboe/Clarinet when I have a legato phrase with no attributes, cubase plays the first note legato, the second note Thrill, the third Legato, the fourth Thril etc.
Interestingly on the Trumpet/Trombone/Horn Cuasbe alternates between legato and staccato!
So I believe that it's always the two lowest articulations which Cubase alternates.

Maybe I can upload something later, but maybe you can tell me how you set up your mappings?

Thanks!
Tom

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vic_france
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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by vic_france » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:49 pm

Just to be clear.. are you using the HALion Symphonic Orchestra VSTi, or the HALion Sonic Orchestra presets in HALion Sonic (SE)? (the following, refers to the former)..
t0nes wrote:Do you mean that you import the expression maps from the Steinberg download page?
Yes (although I don't actually like most of them, precisely because of the situation you mention, where the default slot doesn't have an input key)
I made expression maps by importing key switches from Halion Sonic SE and then move "Legato" to the top and re-number with Set Remote Keys. I noticed that when I do this, the first key switch doesn't get a remote, instead it gets three slashes.
I can see only danger there! :P ..
1) Without actually trying that myself, I'd be surprised if the Expression Maps from Halion Sonic SE would correspond exactly with the presets in HSO VSTi.. each map really does depend upon the preset for which it is intended to be used. In the case of the Flute, are you referring to "Solo Flute Combi KS"? or the "Lite Flute Solo" preset in the "HSO Lite KS" section?
2) As regards re-assigning the articulations, I'd need to see your Map, but I really do suggest you start by loading the HSO maps rather than the HALion Sonic ones (trying it here now, using the "Flute Solo" map for HALion Symphonic), where the default articulation indeed has no remote input key, I can fix that easily by using "Set Remote Keys", like you did (without any further manipulation).
Even when I switch to the pre-fab maps I'd like to renumber the switches close to the playing range because my midi keyboard isn't full range, but maybe I have to ensure that the first slot gets an input key??
Yes, fix that first, then use the "Root Note" box to set the lowest trigger note globally (it will transpose all input trigger keys accordingly)
About the Attributes: I've set all expressions to "Attribute" sot that staccato's and tremolo's get an indivual symbols in the score, which is great. The only "Direction"s are Arco and Pizzicato which seems logic to me.
The problem is that in case of the Flute/Oboe/Clarinet when I have a legato phrase with no attributes, cubase plays the first note legato, the second note Thrill, the third Legato, the fourth Thril etc.
Interestingly on the Trumpet/Trombone/Horn Cuasbe alternates between legato and staccato!
So I believe that it's always the two lowest articulations which Cubase alternates.
Let's first see if this problem disappears if you start with the correct map ;).
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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by t0nes » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:42 pm

Hi Vic,

Thanks for all your help.
It's getting a little confusing.
Let's make something clear: since cubase 6 I started using the Hso soundset within Halion sonic Se.
In the past, I did use the Hso player, but Halion sonic has some advantages and the soundset is more streamlined.
Also in cubase 6 it's possible to "receive" all the key switches directly from the plug-in, at least with Halion Sonic.
So this is what I mean with Import Key Switches from Halion sonic.
These key swiches should be the most accurate, at least what I assume.
How do you use the Hso library?
Because maybe this a difference between our configurations.
I will try to put a default input key in all maps, in a couple of days.

Tom

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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by t0nes » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:11 pm

Did some testing and realised I did the opposite:
I imported HSO expresions maps (HSO VSTi) and use them on halion Sonic.
I noticed that the keyswitches from the imported map are different then the internal keyswitches, BUT therefore the whole expressions mapping system is designed for. It maps input keys to the right keyswtiches...
And in the first place all works well, but at some point Cubase gets confused and starts alternating between key switches.

So maybe it's the best way to make all the input keys exactly the same as the internal keyswitches from HSO.
I could use the smart Import Key Switches from plug-ins but then I'll loose the right Attributes/Directions.

pffff.....

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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by vic_france » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:30 pm

Ah.. well that's at least one thing cleared up! :) At least now I can follow your recipe..
When I import the key swithes from the Flute, the first keyswitch is Thrills WT. This doesn't make sense and gives a problem when I want to renumber the key switches. The Thrill WT will get no input key (but three slashes) and will be my default expression. Therfore i move Legato to the top first.
I am not getting that here (I tested on the HS SE "Flute Combi" preset).. on importing the keyswitches, the trill is indeed first (therefore the Default!), but it does have an input key (C0), so I don't really know why it isn't working for you. And the rest of your recipe worked o.k. here.
But yes indeed, the HSO Soundset in HALion Sonic SE is superb, and easier to work with than HSO VSTi.

I do recommend that you try out ZeroZero's excellent download, precisely for the Orchestral set in HS SE, with customized VST Expression Maps...
http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19&t=13798
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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by t0nes » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:00 pm

Hi Vic,

The problem is that I'm working on a the score of a large composition and when I create new expression maps all my connections with the score expression symbols are lost. So it's a little difficult to really narrow everything down to the exact problem. I have to finish this score first.
Sometimes a reload of the project makes everyting plays fine, the next time some instruments get crazy again right after startup.
You see, I can try everyting with the mappings but the problem is not consistent.
I did a short test by altering all remote keys of the Horn so that they exactly match the internal key switches in the HSO sound set, but after a reload of the project, Cubase started right away with a legato sample, followed by a mysterious staccato sample (should be legato).

Maybe when I will create a new empty project and set everything up from scratch the problem won't be there anymore, but for this project it's there...
This project file was originally created in 2007 so maybe there is something data hidden I can't see.

Maybe you can help me the best by telling me if you do work with expression maps on large projects, with cubase 6?
And within Halion Sonic? And with directions or attributes? On Mac?

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vic_france
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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by vic_france » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:13 am

Yes, you are a bit stumped if you are in the middle of a scoring project.
Personally, my own work is so chaotic (in terms of the VSTis/external synths that I run) that I tend to use a mixture of VST Expression and regular symbols on big Projects, rather than exclusively VST Expression. However, when ZeroZero was preparing that HALion Sonic Orchestra project that I mentioned earlier, he did invite me to do some testing with it, and I never came upon the anomalies that seem to be affecting your project. But, in all fairness, his VST Expression Maps are more geared around the Key Editor than the Score Editor, and they are all Direction-type articulations.
I can merely suggest that, when you have completed that current Project, you do some tests (on a smaller scale ;) ), and, if it still exhibits the same problems, then maybe you could upload the Project, so that I can try to see if I can spot anything.
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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by t0nes » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:28 pm

OK,

Finally got it fixed!
It was getting very frustrating, because Steinberg support came up with all kind of advices, but they didn't work out.
Only the last advice was to take another look at the expression map itself. I finally I saw that the Legato articulation just didn't existed in the key editor.
I had seen this before but thought: that make sense because it's the default expression.
Wrong!
It's necessary to asssign an articulation to EVERY sound slot, even the first (default) one.
Otherwise cubase will mash up the articulations at some point.
I think the Legato articulation got lost during the transition from earlier HSO mappings to the new ones.

In the end I was kind of my fault, but this wasn't easy.

Good luck to everyone.

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Re: Anyone using Expressions maps?

Post by ZeroZero » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:52 pm

Hello folks I must say i am getting a few anomolies when looping with expression maps, I put them down to problems with the map picking up correctly in a loop maybe a slight offset might help now and then.
I notice that Cubase 6.05 states it has fixed this - out next week

Yes my maps are more geared toward the key editor, i am not a fan of automated notation symbols/marking too much clutter.

Last couple of weeksI have been working with Sibelius trial, its always been tempting me, but I have decided against it again as its not integrated with Cubase sufficiently. Note expression/maps is still buggy but its a real god send really the very best thing on teh market
My hunch is something beigger and better is coming in Cubsase 7

Zero
Cubase 9, 64 bit Intel 8700k, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM PC, Win10, Focusrite Liquid 56 Running in Surround 5.1 British Rail sandwich circa 1967, a singing fish and an inert K9.

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