Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

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Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by vsthem » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:28 pm

Can Dorico 2 import audio files?

Can Dorico 2 import midi tempo maps to successfully sync with audio files? I frequently record without a click, and then tempo map the audio to create a grid for myself.

Thanks all!

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:32 pm

Dorico cannot import audio files, and nor can it currently import just the tempo map from a MIDI file.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by vsthem » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:41 pm

Thanks for the quick response! (even if it's not the response I was hoping for)

Does it import tempo information from MIDIs? In theory, could I start a project by importing a MIDI, and then hide the MIDI track and make my score from there?

And, could I make a dummy video file that has the audio file? I know that you can listen to the video's audio from a youtube video I saw.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a hacky way to do what I want. I do a lot of string arranging for pop singers who send me their demos. I'd like to be able to score the strings, and hear playback of the strings and the demo audio simultaneously.

Is there a way to request these features? Or, are there any plans already to implement it? I imagine that this would be really useful for a lot of arrangers who are adding to demos or to recorded material.

Thanks!

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by robjohn9999 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:01 pm

vsthem wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:41 pm
Thanks for the quick response! (even if it's not the response I was hoping for)

Does it import tempo information from MIDIs? In theory, could I start a project by importing a MIDI, and then hide the MIDI track and make my score from there?

And, could I make a dummy video file that has the audio file? I know that you can listen to the video's audio from a youtube video I saw.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a hacky way to do what I want. I do a lot of string arranging for pop singers who send me their demos. I'd like to be able to score the strings, and hear playback of the strings and the demo audio simultaneously.

Is there a way to request these features? Or, are there any plans already to implement it? I imagine that this would be really useful for a lot of arrangers who are adding to demos or to recorded material.

Thanks!
I haven't checked and should let Daniel answer, but I'm presuming if you import a Midi track from your DAW (either blank or with 1 midi note in it you can subsequently delete/hide, etc.) that it will import into Dorico along with it any time signatures, key signatures, and tempo changes you've added in your DAW, and then (as you suggest) you can hide this track (or even delete it after adding your "actual" tracks in Dorico). I've exported tempo maps this way for years...
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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:53 pm

It is certainly possible that we will add the ability to play back audio tracks in a future version of Dorico. We don't want to get into the world of audio recording (we'll leave that to Cubase) but we do want to help with the transcription and arranging process, and I agree that this is one way that we can provide useful assistance in the future.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by robjohn9999 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:00 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:53 pm
It is certainly possible that we will add the ability to play back audio tracks in a future version of Dorico. We don't want to get into the world of audio recording (we'll leave that to Cubase) but we do want to help with the transcription and arranging process, and I agree that this is one way that we can provide useful assistance in the future.
I'm presuming even just a nice "Rewire"-type syncing with Cubase and other DAW's for the audio portion could also be helpful of course (down the line), as I think you've alluded to...
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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by -steve- » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:37 pm

vsthem wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:41 pm
And, could I make a dummy video file that has the audio file? I know that you can listen to the video's audio from a youtube video I saw.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a hacky way to do what I want. I do a lot of string arranging for pop singers who send me their demos. I'd like to be able to score the strings, and hear playback of the strings and the demo audio simultaneously.
I have been doing almost precisely this for a series of pieces I transcribed which was my intro to Dorico. If you're interested, here's my workflow...

Initially, in Cubase I did a tempo detection, and created a midi track with a single event at the the end, in order to allow a MIDI export from Cubase. The tempo track was included when I imported the resultant file into Dorico.

I found, however, for the purpose of doing transcriptions, using Cubase tempo detection was overkill, and I eliminated that step, because adding tempo points in Dorico is so easy.

In Dorico I set the original tempo by ear, then added the tempo points as I went along to accommodate the tempo variances. It was not necessary in my case to have it be 100% synced, close –meaning the playback cursor would visually cross the barline on beat 1- was good enough for transcribing. But, if I needed it to be more precise for proofing in unison with the source performance I refined the tempo where it was needed.

I created the 'dummy' video file using the free version of Davinci Resolve, and attached it to a flow in Dorico. In the Video properties dialog, and in the Play Mode window it was a simple matter to move the start of the audio, including accommodating repeats.

This was the smoothest experience I have had using a computer to transcribe, more comfortable than Cubase, in fact, which I have used a lot, and I found it easier to focus on the task since there are fewer elements on the screen to deal with.
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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by vsthem » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:50 am

Thanks Steve! That's super helpful. Still mulling the switch from Sibelius, but if it could be a better transcription tool, that'd make a huge difference

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:36 pm

robjohn9999 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:00 pm
I'm presuming even just a nice "Rewire"-type syncing with Cubase and other DAW's for the audio portion could also be helpful of course (down the line), as I think you've alluded to...
- D.D.
All things I would like to see in the future as well. Until then I've had some success with supplemental software.

If Dorico is the Master [sync source] one can use ReWire VST to create a ReWire connection (Audio: 1 Stereo bus, 6 mono busses, MIDI: at least 16 MIDI channels over 8 ports [possibly more than 16 channels per port, with duplicates for layering but have not tried it yet]).

I've personally used Bidule to sync simple audio tracks with Dorico, as well as for a variety of real time audio rendering applications. I've a registered version so I can host it directly in Dorico as a VST or VST/i without needing ReWire; however, one can experiment with the free demo version via ReWire using ReWire VST.

Obviously the major catch with the ReWire VST plugin under Dorico, is that Dorico has to be the "Master" DAW in the equation. Cubase can't be a 'slave' under Rewire, but there might be some form of audio tracking DAW out there that can (I use BIdule, but it's not really a 'tracking' style setup). Sibelius and Finale can both be a ReWired Slave to Dorico (Not very pragmatic, but possible to sync with Dorico if one ever needs to do so). The single stereo, 6 mono Bus setup of ReWire VST takes some getting used to as well, but it works. I wish they had a straight 16 stereo bus version of ReWire VST, but it is what it is, and it does work for me with Dorico, and remains stable.

Another option I have had success with is to run Bidule (or some other DAW/Host) in their own stand alone mode first, then open Dorico. Next, I can use virtual MIDI ports (PC, Mac), and/or ReaStream VST to bridge the two apps. Again, Dorico pretty much needs to be the Master [sync source] Application.

Is it worth all the trouble? To me, Bidule has been a great investment for all sorts of reasons...Diagnostics, Re-routing, hosting instruments over a LAN server, fudging in feature sets that any given host might not have natively yet, etc.

If the project is destined to have a score and parts printed from day one. I find it can be worth the trouble to begin the workflow in Dorico and use such tools to supplement the work-flow. In contrast, if the mock-up quality of the project is first in the order of Priority, or I need much precision to sync it with video or something, then I'd much rather start the project in CuBase and export enough of the project for a proper score in whatever Scoring App is appropriate later.

As for using it with Dorico to 'sync with audio' I've used Bidule VST or VSTi for the following:

1. Lock a single stereo master of a recording so it Syncs to Dorico for transcription in Dorico. (Can also be done through ReWire)

2. Make and play back quick vocal or live instrument tracks to go with, and sync to a Dorico Project. It's not as easy/intuitive to do as it would be in a true tracking DAW, but it works. (Can play through ReWire, but to 'make' such tracks through Dorico, one needs the registered VST variant of Bidule).

3. VST Chainer, since Dorico's current mixer only gives us 4 slots per channel and sends to a single FX channel....it also comes in handy for forcing various effect side-chaining scenarios that Dorico does not yet do on its own. (Registered VST/i variants only).

4. On an older system that can only handle so many VST/i plugins...I sometimes render heavy processing/memory VSTi plugins into an audio track to free up system resources for more/new virtual instruments. I.E. I've some acoustic piano plugins that nearly max out my particular system on their own. I'll render such a piano stave into a wav file then disable the resource hogging plugin. (Registered VST/i variants only)

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:28 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:53 pm
It is certainly possible that we will add the ability to play back audio tracks in a future version of Dorico. We don't want to get into the world of audio recording (we'll leave that to Cubase) but we do want to help with the transcription and arranging process, and I agree that this is one way that we can provide useful assistance in the future.
I realize you have a very long to do list, with many issues of a much higher priority, but please consider adding this to the list if it's not already there:

Instant Render a stave into pure audio with a toggle to disable the plugin and play back the audio version, or disable the audio version and trigger the Virtual Instrument.

I.E. User has a plugin that uses a lot of computer resources. He needs to add a stave for some more parts, but is out of head-room to load the sound. If the user could select a batch of tracks and 'instant render' them to pure audio, he could disable enough VSTi plugins to keep working.

Some plugins out there push a CPU hard, and/or use a lot of memory, particularly if they are using some kind of encrypted/protected samples optimized for Intel cores, and we run them on weaker AMD cores.

Drives me nuts when some of my favorite plugins in terms of the sounds they make start spiking CPU and glitching. In CuBase I can push through it via Instant render. It'd be nice if we can someday do something similar in Dorico as well.

I also realize it might not be practical to include the project audio files as part the saved dorico project...so any instant rendered stuff could be 'lost' when moving the project to a new system. Not sure how it would work there, but even if it's a temporary thing, per 'session', it'd still be helpful I think.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by LSalgueiro » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you, Brian! I could swear you had mentioned ReWire VST in these forums, but for the life of me I could not find it while searching. I'll consider giving it a try. One can already do a lot with Dorico has the master, though it's not ideal.

As for freezing tracks, it was suggested in the past and I was thinking about it the other day as well.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:36 pm

LSalgueiro wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:53 pm
Thank you, Brian! I could swear you had mentioned ReWire VST in these forums, but for the life of me I could not find it while searching. I'll consider giving it a try. One can already do a lot with Dorico has the master, though it's not ideal.

As for freezing tracks, it was suggested in the past and I was thinking about it the other day as well.
Just saw this as well, though I have not tried it:
http://www.energy-xt.com/index.php?id=0101

On a quick glance, and provided it runs stable in Dorico, I'm assuming one could meld multi-track recording to Dorico with the Energy XT VST plugin, and no ReWire would be needed.

Code: Select all

Audio engine

    32-bit audio engine with time-stretching/pitch-shifting algorithm from zplane development
    Supports industry standard VST instruments and effects
    Thread-based disk streaming and audio recording
    Automatic plugin delay compensation
    Offline render to 16/24/32 bit mono/stereo wav files at any sample rate
    Runs with ASIO, ALSA or as VST plugin
If one just wants synced audio tracking with Dorico as the Master, it just might be an option.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by lokotus » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:09 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:32 pm
Dorico cannot import audio files, and nor can it currently import just the tempo map from a MIDI file.
I can see that a basic drag & drop feature from cubase to dorico was established. Unfortunately I thought I can drag & drop a midi file containing the tempo map and time signatures into a new or existing flow (but an entirely new project is created by using drag & drop instead)

So both features, importing just the tempo map from a MIDI file and improved drag & drop support between Cubase and Dorico, would help save some time here. (movie scoring)

Cheers, lokotus

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by vsthem » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:53 am

Thanks Brian. That vst audio player looks like that could be a great solution. I'd love to know if anyone is able to successfully use it.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:16 am

vsthem wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:53 am
Thanks Brian. That vst audio player looks like that could be a great solution. I'd love to know if anyone is able to successfully use it.
I'll see about giving it a try. Maybe there is a demo on the site. It's not very expensive if it ends up working, so that's a big plus.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:11 am

Brian Roland wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:16 am
vsthem wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:53 am
Thanks Brian. That vst audio player looks like that could be a great solution. I'd love to know if anyone is able to successfully use it.
I'll see about giving it a try. Maybe there is a demo on the site. It's not very expensive if it ends up working, so that's a big plus.
I grabbed the Demo and could not find a way to host energyXT as a plugin inside Dorico (or any other VST host I have for that matter). I have sent a message to the support email address at the energyXT website to see if I might be missing something (perhaps it's not included in the demo, but available upon registering).

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:23 am

vsthem wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:53 am
Thanks Brian. That vst audio player looks like that could be a great solution. I'd love to know if anyone is able to successfully use it.
I tried the ReWire VST plugin in Dorico as a VSTi and a demo of Reaper, which can provide audio tracking abilities in sync with Dorico. It seems to work OK [at hosting plugins and playing them] with some simple tests here on my Windows 10 rig. Note, this configuration does not give you the full scope of power in getting an audio source directly from audio hardware 'into' the workflow without using some sort of work-around. I.E. You could sync pre-made audio tracks to Dorico with no problem. You could drive virtual instruments loaded in Reaper, and even record/render them to audio tracks in Reaper with no problem.

[update 7/8/2018: I am having trouble getting the Reaper transport to sync with Dorico. Things started falling apart when I tried to have Reaper play some audio tracks in sync with Dorico]

The good news is you can try some things out using demo versions to see if it might be worth the bother to you. The bad news is, if you want to record live audio from this same work-flow, there are limits that make it far from a simple 'out of the box' solution that doesn't require a variety of third party hacks.

The problem lay in getting other audio sources into Reaper for making audio recordings within the Dorico workflow, such as a microphone, or the output of the Dorico Mixer itself. Dorico currently does not provide any obvious way for the user to select and route any audio input source into the mixing matrix unless it comes in through a valid VSTi plugin. Since Dorico currently ignores hardware audio inputs, they don't show up in the ReWire matrix, so you can't use them in the ReWired Reaper instance to record with either.

There is a simple work-around to at least get audio to stream out of Dorcio into Reaper if you want that. This can be done with the ReaStream plugin in any Dorico VST effect slot(s) you'd like to make an outgoing stream for. I.E. If you wanted to record a full mix of Dorico's audio output onto a stereo track in Reaper, you could run an instance of reaStream in one of Dorico's Master effect slots, and do the same as the input for the audio track in Reaper. Of course Reaper's audio will be output into the Dorcio Mixer via your ReWire VSTi plugin.

As for getting audio input from an audio device (such as a live microphone) into the workflow, it's possible, but currently it is a bit of a pain. The simplest method would be to open some other app with access to the hardware and record it there, then import that audio file into Reaper (or whatever ReWire slave you like). Since the ReWired instance of Reaper is capable of sending MIDI sync signals over a MIDI port (something currently lacking in Dorcio), the recording app could be synced to Dorcio/Reaper's transport if you really want/need.

I have my way of syncing and locking all sorts of stuff with Bidule VST/i instances in Dorcio (multiple instances of various apps, best with more than one audio device in the system, or even on two independent synced computers), but until we get control over audio 'input devices' in the Dorcio Mixing Matrix, and/or a way to send MIDI sync information form Dorico over MIDI ports, I have to use a variety of third party routing apps to make any sort of 'live tracking/recording' possible from inside a Dorico Work-flow.
Last edited by Brian Roland on Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by cparmerlee » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:48 pm

I am working on a project right now where I needed the singer's track available while scoring the arrangement. I did this by shooting a video of the singer. Timing is not an issue because he was singing to a basic rhythm track I had already created in Dorico. This works OK, but it seems like overkill to have to do a video when all I need is an audio track. And Rewire seems like unnecessary complication for such a common, basic need.
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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:10 pm

cparmerlee wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:48 pm
I am working on a project right now where I needed the singer's track available while scoring the arrangement. I did this by shooting a video of the singer. Timing is not an issue because he was singing to a basic rhythm track I had already created in Dorico. This works OK, but it seems like overkill to have to do a video when all I need is an audio track. And Rewire seems like unnecessary complication for such a common, basic need.
Packing audio into a video wrappper is a great idea. That's certainly one sure fire way to get some audio synced up...
Free muxing tools that would make it possible to turn any ole audio file into something that syncs through Dorico's native video player are out there...so I'm glad you brought this up.

It's true...I've been writing about hacks and work-arounds to currently missing feature sets. These are all things that are on the list to be added to Dorico at some point, but some of us want or need various abilities now. It's not for everyone, and it does have pros, cons, and additional work-flow fuss to learn to manage. That IS one of the selling points of the VST protocol however. Extending the music making abilities of a host DAW via plugins is part of the industry standard.

It is not worth the bother unless you already have such supplementary plugins and know your way around them (or don't mind, or even enjoy learning them), and you find yourself needing and using them on a regular basis. For me, that's been the point of registering Bidule. It hosts, monitors, chains, bridges, mixes, matches, patches, and transforms on the fly. If there is anything about an audio or midi stream you wish to manipulate or re-route in real time, it's one heck of a tool...

I got a copy years before Dorico was even announced to the public. It's been something of a staple for live performing and practice situations. It's allowed me to fudge major feature sets into apps that don't have them, breath new life into older hardware that I'd have throw away otherwise to host/serve more instruments when needed, and mix/match/mesh plugins from a universal setup which allows me to easily transfer entire sets of sounds across nearly any app with a similar instrument management work-flow. It's made it possible to fit square pegs in round holes so to speak...with tasks like running vst3 or au plugins in apps that don't do that yet...sync up some audio with an app that doesn't do that, or host MIDI things in apps that don't do that, and so on.
Last edited by Brian Roland on Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:31 pm

vsthem wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:53 am
Thanks Brian. That vst audio player looks like that could be a great solution. I'd love to know if anyone is able to successfully use it.
I spent some more time trying to slave Reaper with the ReWire VST plugin. I'm having problems getting Reaper to sync transports with Dorico. It will host instruments and the mixing desk works, but I can't get the transport working reliably. There are dozens of adjustments one can make in Reaper regarding ReWire, so it might be possible to force a sync somehow....I've yet to find it though.

With Bidule [no Reaper involved] however, I'm able to get a reliable sync, and attaching audio that syncs to the Dorico transport and moving play-back carrot/cursor is pretty easy. I did make a few bidules that force the native audio file players in Bidule to sync up (it syncs to the audio stream clock), as well as a bit of logic making it easier to manipulate the starting point of where a wave begins and stops playing (a simple offset one can set with a couple of UI sliders). Keep in mind, it's not a fancy tracking style workflow, where one can visually edit, nudge, and snip disk based files via pre-generated wave-forms and spectra graph data, as Bidule is primarily a 'live stream' routing/morphing tool. For audio sessions that involve advanced file based sample editing, as far as I know, one is presently better off to export MIDI files and move the project to a full blown Tracking DAW.

As for Cubase, even with Bidule hosted in Dorico with the intent of fudging some kind of sync protocol, I've not yet found a way to generate a full blown MTC/MIDI Clock signal out of Bidule that can sync up with and control the CuBase transport.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by vsthem » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:32 pm

Hey Brian. That's a lot of good info. Steve's solution of using Davinici to make a video and importing a MIDI seemed like a much simpler solution. Is there a reason that you're exploring all these different and more complicated ways of syncing audio to Dorico? I don't need to multitrack in Dorico, I use Cubase, but I do want to be able to reference audio while I'm transcribing and arranging.

Also, it would seem that the tech is already inside Dorico: audio can be played through video. Tempos can be harvested from MIDIs. It would seem like a relatively simple thing to implement a feature of importing audio without video, and importing tempo maps without other MIDI information.

Another feature request that would make me an instant purchaser: If audio and MIDI tempos could be imported and sync with playback, AND there was a key command for half speed playback, this would make Dorico the ultimate transcribing tool on the market. I imagine that a lot of professional users transcribe music and that catering to that segment would be worth the resources IMO.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by vsthem » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:38 pm

Although I have a sneaking suspicion that it will eventually be synced to Cubase, and that's why these features aren't in there yet....

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by LSalgueiro » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:47 pm

vsthem wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:38 pm
Although I have a sneaking suspicion that it will eventually be synced to Cubase, and that's why these features aren't in there yet....
Daniel has stated clearly in the forums that ReWire as a technology is not all that great and that they would be working towards a proper implementation of these matters with Cubase, if I recall correctly.

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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by cparmerlee » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:38 pm

LSalgueiro wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:47 pm
Daniel has stated clearly in the forums that ReWire as a technology is not all that great and that they would be working towards a proper implementation of these matters with Cubase, if I recall correctly.
I wish Steinberg would put its efforts toward making the industry-standard facilities (like Rewire and ARA) more robust rather then trying to push proprietary solutions.
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Re: Dorico 2: Syncing to Audio?

Post by Brian Roland » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:19 am

vsthem wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:32 pm
Hey Brian. That's a lot of good info. Steve's solution of using Davinici to make a video and importing a MIDI seemed like a much simpler solution. Is there a reason that you're exploring all these different and more complicated ways of syncing audio to Dorico? I don't need to multitrack in Dorico, I use Cubase, but I do want to be able to reference audio while I'm transcribing and arranging.

Also, it would seem that the tech is already inside Dorico: audio can be played through video. Tempos can be harvested from MIDIs. It would seem like a relatively simple thing to implement a feature of importing audio without video, and importing tempo maps without other MIDI information.

Another feature request that would make me an instant purchaser: If audio and MIDI tempos could be imported and sync with playback, AND there was a key command for half speed playback, this would make Dorico the ultimate transcribing tool on the market. I imagine that a lot of professional users transcribe music and that catering to that segment would be worth the resources IMO.
Here's the thing. As someone who's used Bidule for several years, it's really no trouble at all. It's like my favorite pocket knife, and it goes with me in every DAW I use. Because I use the tool often and know my way around it...it doesn't strike me as being 'complex' at all.

I sometimes come upon situations where I want a quick way to track some simple audio files along side a score without moving to a new app or workflow. It takes less than a minute to set it up and just 'do it'. Even in cases where it takes a moment to build some logic to get a bidule working, we can always 'save' it and use it again and again. In this case, all it takes is a 'sync generator' bidule, one 'audio file play back or record' bidule, a simple + operator, and a UI slider that sends a range of integers when moved (after monitoring what Dorico sends as a lead in, I've learned to simply set the slider range for whatever sample rate one is using...alignment is simple from there: I.E. At 44.1khz, the Dorico lead-in is usually going to be around 40,000 samples).

Here's what the finished UI of My Dorico Tracker Bidule looks like:
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The rendition above has logic for both playback and recording all in the same bidule. If I enable the recorder portion of the bidule, all I have to do is 'click play' in Dorico, and it starts recording whatever audio I have routed into the bidule. I've got a nice routing matrix and mixer built into the bidule as well....so 32 channel mix downs to a single stereo file are possible.
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To sync a wave for playback. It's not much to it really, and it's all wired and ready to go in any bidule instance I choose. It's good to make a stereo mix recording, or with some minor adjustments I could even dump each of the 32 audio channels into independent tracks/files in one go if I really wanted. I threw a sample monitor in there to save me some simple math by hand in the middle of a work session. I can just look at the 'min' value and see how many samples Dorico sends before it hits bar 0. From there I can tweak the slider to make fine adjustments so everything aligns to Dorico's transport as it should.

Once my logic was made for all that above, I 'grouped' the circuit into a single bidule, added any 'optional' fancy UI or remote control elements I wanted, and saved it. Inside the group, before I built the little UI you can see above, My Dorico Tracker Bidule looks like this, and it didn't take me but a few minutes to build and stash it away for quick and easy use any time I need it:
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For ever-more it only takes me three clicks of the mouse to pull up the bidule. I can put it in a VST mixer chain to record off the Dorico Mixer, or I can run it from inside a VSTi instance to record things raw, or 'play' audio files into the Dorico Mixer. I've already got it set to take account for Dorico's lead in samples, but if I need to change that I just tweak that 'sample offset' slider to align the file so it syncs properly (in a tracking DAW, we'd get scissors, and chop out the lead-in, then nudge it into place...instead, I just move a single slider). Another click or two to hook it up and load or name the file it'll be playing/recording. There's a lot of scripting-like power user things one can do through such a tool, but it's visual object based up front (one can also code and compile bidules as well, or slip in compiled VST/au plugins, etc).

I could go on for many pages on the sorts of situations where it really is nice to be able to snoop low level data streams and tweak them in real time.

As for trying to run a tracking app under Dorico with a 3rd party ReWire hack, I personally don't need that much audio editing power while working in Dorico. I was just curious about seeing if I could make it work. I came 'very close' to making things work with Reaper, and at some point in the future, all it would take to make it (or another DAW of choice) a powerful multi-tracking add-on would be a little more flexibility in Dorico's mixing matrix, and a way to send a sync signal (MTC/MMC for instance) to one's device/port of choice. Given the right combination of 3rd party tools with the right settings, it's probably 'already possible' [I could even dig out the bidule dev kit and create a compiled bidule that generates a kind of fake MTC signal if I really wanted it bad enough)...it's just not worth the trouble to seek out 'a way' for me at this point.

Steinberg has their own system-link protocol, which will be ideal for we Cubase users at some point. Until then, I was just 'curious'. I could see such a work-flow being perfect for a lot of Dorico Users who want to do 99% of their work in Dorico, and occassionaly tack on a tracking side-project; so,I gave it a try.


Just a few examples of things I do with Bidule....so you can see that it's not always a 'more complicated' methodology than it might seem up front:

The main things I currently use Bidule with Dorico in are (Note, I've a registered VST/VSTi version, and rarely mess with Rewire unless I need some 32bit stuff [or whatever else might not play nice with Steinberg hosts and end up black-listed] I'd like to bridge off into its own domain):

1. Transcribing. It takes less than a minute to sync up whatever audio file someone sends me that they want transcribed. It's not 'pretty', and I do a little simple math to figure out where in the audio file it's best to have it 'start playing', but honestly...it is as easy as pie. Not very 'complicated' at all.

2. Freezing processing/memory intensive plugins into an audio track when/if I need those resources for more/new live virtual instruments. I have a few plugins that darn near max out my system on their own. At first I'll just use lighter instruments, but sometimes I want to work with a better plugin that wouldn't leave much headroom for 'the rest of the band/orchestra'. No problem...I can make such a track from inside the Bidule instance in no time flat, then disable the resource hogging plugin.

3. Occasionally I want to make a quick vocal or instrumental track on the spot. I might not be at a good point in the work-flow to bother with stopping the project, exporting things, and trying to set it all up again in a new environment. It's very easy to just open any ole audio recording app, let it roll, start Dorico, and play/sing along with it while wearing some headphones to give a little isolation from the mix. Once I've done that, it's quite easy to patch the file into a Dorico hosted Bidule instance and get it synced up. Working it into the overall mix isn't very difficult either.

4. Correct buggy or incomplete hardware. Ever had a MIDI keyboard that with age doesn't have an even velocity response across all the keys anymore? Maybe that G3 'plunks' out at 'full velocity' no matter how 'soft' you tap it. Well, until you can get the thing to a shop, or sort out time to clean/repair it yourself, Bidule can sniff that bad note out, analyze the velocity of 'notes around' it, and somewhat repair your situation.

How many times have you ever spent a nice chunck of change on something like a pedal, bank of MPC pads, or whatever, only to find it has some innate quirk in the firmware that would otherwise force you to bin the piece of gear? Got a nice $200 set of piano pedals that are wired backwards for your brand new key-board controller, which has no firmware fix to invert the signal? No sweat...Bidule can invert that CC64 event for ya. Wanna teach your regular qwerty computer keyboard, or your iPad or Android tablet to do a lot of controller type things in a performing situation? No problem....you get HID and OSC hooks to create that sort of thing. Controller possibilities are nearly endless...do with a single slider things that used to take you dozens of them. Transform controllers with no, or only a few configuration presets into something that has unlimited banks and presets...which can be called up a myrid of ways...via pedals, switches, breath, whatever you have at hand to tie into the matrix.

5. Want an effect chain that gets complicated, and needs side-chaning and other features that your favorite DAW might not support, or maybe you've just 'run out' of effect slots? Again....you're covered.

6. Imagine you have a very complex setup for all of your favorite instruments. It mixes and matches dozens of plugins, as well as channels over multitembral plugins. Loading all the mess in Dorico alone can take a good half hour or more, let alone considering moving the project to other apps. With Bidule, I can host different plugins under the same MIDI port and channel bounce or key-switching configurations all I like. Export and import...don't have to sit there and load all my stuff in the target app one by one...don't need as large of a template collection for each individual app, and so on. I can load this same instrument and effect setup into almost ANY DAW or Scoring package out there in mere seconds. Imagine being able to create a single 'solo violin' that is actually a mixed mesh of all your favorite plugins. Maybe you've got HALion, Kontakt, ARIA, and Vienna Ensemble stuff. Sometimes you want to layer it up and use it 'together' from a single Dorico stave. Bidule lets one invent his own key-switches, program changes, channel bounces, key-board splits, CC controllers and such.....reroute the MIDI stream nearly anywhere you'd ever want to send it...while also transforming it in real time when needed. It's also ready to go in my other DAWs that have full VST automation capabilities for even further and ultra precise 'mix-down' time refinements right there in the DAW's native VST automation lanes.

7. For articulations and style changes that I use often, I can begin to automate a lot more things that currently aren't possible from Dorico alone unless you are one to get locked deep into something like LUA scripting for HALion 6. I.E. I can snoop and use tempo information from a 'sync extractor' bidule to have Bidule automatically run some simple if/then/or logic to choose between martele, sauteli, spiccato, or staccato based on A: The tempo, B: A dot living over a note, C: presence or absence of slurs/tenutos/etc. These choices can be very different based on tempo, style, and dynamic range. We can already manually tack this stuff into a score 'one note at a time' in Dorico without tools like Bidule...but with it...one can make a huge leap in the automatic translation and playback of a score. Furthermore, I'm not limited to the articulation choices bound in a single instrument plugin/slot/channel. I could pick pizzicato from Vienna Ensemble, an Arco from Garritan, a tremolo from HALion, etc. I can make it choose different things based on the tempo and dynamic range of the incoming MIDI stream, and much more. I can also make other simple 'style' markers that get sent as CC/PC/Key-switches/etc. which change the MIDI flow throughout Bidule, and send it all exactly where I want it. I don't have to 'wait' for future versions of a Master App to get 'channel bouncing' from a stave, or wedge in my own playback 'interpretive' routines for each individual note in a piece. I can use arpegiators and such to make my own ornaments when a Master app can't interpret them, fudge in things like micro-tuning, and the list goes on. I don't have to be a 'programmer' fluent at working with various 'compiler' packages to build and test ideas either.

8. It's a bare bones sampler and synth engine as well. It really comes in handy for triggering odd sound effects, or making quick samples of real percussion instruments and throwing them into the mix. If I'm already geared up for it, it can even be quicker than loading up something like Groove Agent or HALion and setting up a new percussion kit. Sometimes it's already part of the flow...and dawg gone easy to load the sample and trigger it from a stave.......easy peasy.
Last edited by Brian Roland on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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