Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

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Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by John Murdoch » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:58 pm

Friends,

I note that the price shown on the Steinberg Online Shop is listed as €599.99 for the full Pro version, or €99.99 for the upgrade including 19% VAT.

I would hope that the managers of the online shop would recall that they are legally obligated to collect VAT from customers in the European Union--but are not to collect VAT from customers outside the EU. And since the online sale specifically requires the customer to identify his or her country of residence, the online shop is fully aware of whether a customer is in the EU or not.

The non-VAT price for the full Dorico Pro 2 should be €504.19. The non-VAT price for the Dorico Pro 2 upgrade should be €84.02. You may want to consult with your tax advisors about whether you will need to refund over-collected VAT from non-EU customers. (You might also consult with the federal tax authorities--making the argument that making music is a particularly healthy activity, and thus should qualify for VAT rating similar to infant formula or milk. :-) )

(I'm not trying to be a nuisance. Like many musicians, I have a day job. Mine includes fiscal compliance with tax requirements in 54 countries, including most of the EU.)
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:05 pm

Have you actually tried purchasing from the Steinberg shop from whatever country you’re in? My understanding is that the checkout price may differ to take into account the difference in sales taxes between different countries.
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:16 pm

I've just whizzed through about four different VPN servers, trying the Steinberg shop "from" France, Canada, New Zealand and Brazil. The shop gives me four different prices in four different currencies, with four different types of sales tax (three actually - there's no sales tax for Canada). Steinberg also reserve the right to charge different prices in different countries, and their local resellers presumably have limited leeway over pricing too.

So, from what I can tell, there's little to no chance of Steinberg charging someone the wrong rate of tax.

Are you sure you're not trying to be a nuisance?
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by jwkay » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:30 pm

Steinberg are also required to collect tax in other jurisdictions, e.g. Norway, where 25% VAT was correctly added to my order. (We're not in the EU, and importing Sibelius in the very early days was a royal pain. Package would be held up by customs who imposed hefty fees, in addition to VAT, before forwarding it to me.) I'm not sure where you're based, but it's not just an EU/non-EU matter.

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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:31 pm

(Hence my trying three non-European countries)
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by Eddo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:41 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:16 pm
Are you sure you're not trying to be a nuisance?
:lol:

Naughty boy!
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:43 pm

I realise from looking at my recent upgrade invoice that my purchase was not from Steinberg themselves, but from AskNet, a company that Steinberg outsource their ecommerce to.

You might find this page informative: https://asknet.support-asknet.com/en/su ... vat-rates-
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by Robby Poole » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:01 pm

I think the 599 and 99 are not the price after tax has been established. In the U.S. you will here "100 dollars plus tax". I've heard "100 dollars with tax". And the point is that tax still needs to be added. I am thinking that the statement "including tax" (only if applicable) means that "here is the cost but you need to add there additional tax to the product price".

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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:04 pm

Depends entirely on what country you’re in, Robby - the conventions are different. The Steinberg shop appears to do the best job it can of being localised to whatever country you appear to be in.
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by Robby Poole » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:18 pm

@PianoLeo

I agree with you. But I think the OP was saying he should have been paid less because it says including tax. My point is that, the cost is the cost, and the phrase including tax does not mean the tax has already been added into the price you see.

I do agree that depending on where you live, there are differences. I was under the impression the OP took the statement 599 including VAT to mean that VAT was already added into the price he sees. I don't read it like that. I see 599 with the tax of 19% added at time of purchase.

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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by fratveno » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:20 pm

In the case of Norway, as an example, an international vendor who has had a turnover of less than approx EUR 5000 in this country, cannot charge VAT on Norwegian orders.

However, as soon as that limited is exceeded the vendor can register their company as VAT compliant and should forthwith charge VAT. AskNet and Fastspring are, e.g. VAT registered in Norway and can legally collect 25% on behalf on the Norwegian tax authorities, whereas companies with smaller direct sales can not (VSL and BestService used to be examples of such)

I think Steinberg has a pretty fair policy in this respect, The advertised prices are inclusive of VAT and generally well balanced between countries/currencies. Actually, I only paid the equivalent of EUR 96 for the Dorico 2 upgrade, incl. 25% Norwegian VAT...
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by John Murdoch » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:42 pm

Robby Poole wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:18 pm
@PianoLeo

I agree with you. But I think the OP was saying he should have been paid less because it says including tax. My point is that, the cost is the cost, and the phrase including tax does not mean the tax has already been added into the price you see.

I do agree that depending on where you live, there are differences. I was under the impression the OP took the statement 599 including VAT to mean that VAT was already added into the price he sees. I don't read it like that. I see 599 with the tax of 19% added at time of purchase.
Robby,

I see from your signature that you, like me, live in the United States. In countries, including the U.S. and Canada, that charge a sales tax, the price is stated before tax is added. In countries that charge VAT, such as all of Europe, the tax is included. The actual revenue booked by the Steinberg Online Shop for the upgrade will be €84.02 in sales revenue, and €15.97 in collected VAT.

Thanks,
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:44 pm

As there still seems to be some confusion here, I just thought I'd go with the principle that a picture tells a thousand words.
These are actual screenshots taken from the Steinberg Shop as viewed in France, Germany, Finland and Australia.
Clearly Steinberg absorb the difference in VAT rates and keep the headline figure roughly the same. I can't believe for a moment that Asknet would charge the wrong rate of tax to anyone, unless that person fraudulently used an address (and linked bank/credit card) in a different country to their own.

France:
Image

Germany:
Image
Finland:
Image
Australia:
Image

P.S. If -steve- is reading this, thanks for the heads up about Greenshot - I'm still having no luck with the forum's own image hosting.
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by Robby Poole » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:46 pm

I appreciate that info. I was not aware that the cost had to include the price of VAT.

I understand your point.

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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by John Murdoch » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:49 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:43 pm
I realise from looking at my recent upgrade invoice that my purchase was not from Steinberg themselves, but from AskNet, a company that Steinberg outsource their ecommerce to.

You might find this page informative: https://asknet.support-asknet.com/en/su ... vat-rates-
AskNet is the actual operator of the Steinberg Online Shop (I bought Dorico 1 from them).

Your link to their explanation of how they collect VAT is extremely helpful. Unfortunately, it doesn't solve my problem--rather, it would seem to underscore that they have more work to do. Connecting from the United States, the stated price on the Steinberg Online Store includes the German VAT rate--right up to the point where I am asked to click a button to make the purchase.

I am completely unwilling to click a button for a purchase with a stated, but incorrect, price, based on a "trust me!" assurance that the price shown isn't really the price--the real price will appear after my card has been charged.

Appreciate the link--but I'll wait to hear from somebody at Steinberg (or AskNet), hopefully tomorrow. Based on the work I've done with German fiscal compliance people (on behalf of 800+ retailers in Germany) the Germans tend to be excruciatingly correct on issues like this.
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by John Murdoch » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:57 pm

An update on this:

I went back to the Steinberg Online Shop, beginning from the Dorico home page. The entire transaction was completed in U.S. Dollars, not Euros, and explicitly stated that no VAT was collected.

Net price: $99.99.
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:07 pm

I was just in the process of uploading this:

Image

I was also idly wondering if you'd muddled up your Euros and your US Dollars. $99.99 = €85.68 at the time of writing (roughly the German price with VAT removed).
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:21 am

The new Dorico web site has an issue concerning the display of the price in the little modal you see on the Dorico site before you add the product to the basket and are transferred to AskNet. The team are aware of the problem and will certainly fix it as soon as is practical. I'm sorry for the confusion or concern caused by being shown the Euro price and the statement that the price includes 19% German VAT. Steinberg has been in business a long time and has a scrupulously correct approach to handling international tax regulations.

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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by asveginor » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:06 pm

Does anyone know why the price in South America is in Euros and not in US dollars? Is that the way it's supposed to be or is it a mistake?

Antonio

(I know my question is not directly linked to the title of this post but since it's related to non-EU customers – and I happen to be one – I thought it would be a good idea to ask… my apologies for any inconvenience)
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:21 pm

I can check this if you want an official answer, but I believe it's because, as AskNet is a German company and is engaged by Steinberg, another German company, if AskNet doesn't have a shop in a particular currency, it falls back to using pricing in the "default" currency, which is Euro.

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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by LAE » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:24 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:21 am
Steinberg has been in business a long time and has a scrupulously correct approach to handling international tax regulations.
I am happy to add that Steinberg also automatically handles the VAT correctly if you are buying through your small business (within the EU) and has a VAT registration number. As long as you add that information to your account, the VAT will be excluded from the price, just as it should.
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Re: Dorico 2 Pricing and VAT for non-EU Customers

Post by asveginor » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:34 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:21 pm
I can check this if you want an official answer, but I believe it's because, as AskNet is a German company and is engaged by Steinberg, another German company, if AskNet doesn't have a shop in a particular currency, it falls back to using pricing in the "default" currency, which is Euro.
Thank you, Daniel! I'm just curious to know. But don't trouble yourself if it's too distracting.... Not that it stopped me from buying Dorico or the upgrade! :D
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