Control room

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JFR
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Control room

Post by JFR » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:54 pm

Hi!
I've notice when i monitor my sessions with the control room on it sounds better then when i monitor directly
of on the main strereo output? Not much but enough the stereo image is wider and the dialogue is just the way
i mixed it and but when i do audio mixdow from the stereo output i loose that stereo image and the dialogue is
a bit louder so my mixes sounds different ? So is there a way to do an audio mix down from the the control room output
instead of the main stereo output?

Many thanks!
JFR
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Re: Control room

Post by peakae » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:56 pm

Do you have any plugins in the control room ?
Make sure in vst-connections that only the output in the studio tab is connected.
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:32 pm

If they sound different then something is definitely wrong with your setup....But if you can't track down what it is straight away and need to do a mix how you're hearing it through control room you could always connect the 6i6 spdif out to in and record that.
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Re: Control room

Post by misohoza » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:11 pm

Do you have the Main mix set to Not connected in Vst Connections when using control room?

Otherwise you may have the signal doubled.
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Re: Control room

Post by Manike » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:03 am

Make sure the stereo output is set to no output in the Connections window otherwise you'll have double signal if you use the studio output.
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:40 am

Thanks for all your help yes I don't have the stereo output connected when I use the control room to monitor so there is no doubling of the mix Like I'm saying the difference is not that big but enough to affect my mix !
When.i do a mix down of the mix and re import it in Cubase it's like I loose a bit of the stereo image and the mono stuff seems a bit louder ?When I listen to the actual session then everything sound like I want it.
So to get exactly what I'm hearing in my session what would the best way to do the audio mixdown? Because when I do a audio mixdown from the stereo out it different ? could it be dithering? So if I do spdif out to spdif in would that acheive that ?
Thanks
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:45 am

JFR wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:40 am
So to get exactly what I'm hearing in my session what would the best way to do the audio mixdown?
The best way would be to work out what in your setup that is making this happen and fix it. Control Room out and Stereo Out should be identical unless you have something setup wrong or have a plug in control room changing the sound (which you didn't confirm?)
Because when I do a audio mixdown from the stereo out it different ? could it be dithering?
Are you dithering? What are you using for dither? Where have you got it inserted?
I'd be astounded if you could hear it as anything remotely like you describe.
So if I do spdif out to spdif in would that acheive that ?
It will record the output digitally so theoretically yes...you will record exactly what you hear.
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:24 pm

best way would be to work out what in your setup that is making this happen and fix it. Control Room out and Stereo Out should be identical unless you have something setup wrong or have a plug in control room changing the sound (which you didn't confirm?)

Hi no in the in control room I don't have any plug ins and everything at 0 and no change made at all I leave it at it's initial settings ?Maybe because when I do a mixdown I don't use the real-time bounce ? Should I?


Are you dithering? What are you using for dither? Where have you got it inserted?
I'd be astounded if you could hear it as anything remotely like you describe.

I'm not doing any dithering should I ?

Thanks for the help!
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Re: Control room

Post by djw » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:30 pm

Can you record both outputs and see if they null?

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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:26 pm

djw wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:30 pm
Can you record both outputs and see if they null?
Hi ! How ? When I do the audio mixdown I only have main output 1 and 2 as a choice not the control room output ? Or do you record spdif out to in ? For both settings i will try.

Could the pan law have that effect? Mine is set to -3.5 ?

Thanks
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Re: Control room

Post by peakae » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:59 pm

Well if you import the exported mixdown back into Cubase, make sure to disable any plugins on the master bus.
Else you are hearing the signal processed twice.
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:19 pm

JFR wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:24 pm
Maybe because when I do a mixdown I don't use the real-time bounce ? Should I?
It shouldn't make any difference unless you have some plugin that doesn't like offline render....but could be worth a try just in case.

I'm not doing any dithering should I ?
Probably? Not enough info to answer any better than this...it depends on your project settings, your export format, what will happen to the exported file next. Your best bet would be to read up on it a little.
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Re: Control room

Post by peakae » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:05 am

What is your export settings ?
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:50 pm

peakae wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:05 am
What is your export settings ?
Hi my export settings are 16 bit 48Khz aiff split file L and R and my session settings are 16 bit 48 Khz pan law -3.5
Thanks for all your help!

I will try all your suggestions
And get back to you
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:31 pm

I get somewhat confused thinking too hard about pan law but I suspect the combo of split files and the pan law may be the issue.

If you don't specifically need split files render stereo which should sound the same regardless.
Otherwise you need to play around with pan law settings for playing these split files back (or possibly for exporting them!?)

NB: There is no -3.5 setting presumably you either mean -3 or -4.5
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Re: Control room

Post by Stephen57 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:38 pm

Grim wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:31 pm
I get somewhat confused thinking too hard about pan law but I suspect the combo of split files and the pan law may be the issue.

If you don't specifically need split files render stereo which should sound the same regardless.
Otherwise you need to play around with pan law settings for playing these split files back (or possibly for exporting them!?)

NB: There is no -3.5 setting presumably you either mean -3 or -4.5
Grim, you are one of the best trouble-shooters going. I'm just jumping into ask if it is possible for pan law settings between Control Room and Stereo Out to be different? I thought Pan Law was set in Project Settings and applies to the project regardless of whether the CtrlRm is on or off? Also, as was suggested, exporting both and testing to see if the files Null sounds like a good idea. As far as real-time export vs. ITB, per some of the engineers posting here, I've come to understand and agree there's no difference. RT export is only used when an external piece of equipment needs it, like a delay, for example. Anyway, thanks for all your good posts, Grim, and good luck to the OP.
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:24 pm

Thanks for the kind words.

you're correct that the pan law is certainly the same regardless of control room being on or off.
I'm guessing the issue is with re-importing the 2 channels as mono files and panning them again....not that there is any actual difference in what is output by control room or stereo out.

My first test at this point would certainly be to try a stereo export...if this sounds the same when re-imported then the split files and pan law are confirmed as the problem.
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:50 am

Grim, you are one of the best trouble-shooters going. I'm just jumping into ask if it is possible for pan law settings between Control Room and Stereo Out to be different? I thought Pan Law was set in Project Settings and applies to the project regardless of whether the CtrlRm is on or off? Also, as was suggested, exporting both and testing to see if the files Null sounds like a good idea. As far as real-time export vs. ITB, per some of the engineers posting here, I've come to understand and agree there's no difference. RT export is only used when an external piece of equipment needs it, like a delay, for example. Anyway, thanks for all your good posts, Grim, and good luck to the OP.
[/quote]
Grim wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:31 pm
I get somewhat confused thinking too hard about pan law but I suspect the combo of split files and the pan law may be the issue.

If you don't specifically need split files render stereo which should sound the same regardless.
Otherwise you need to play around with pan law settings for playing these split files back (or possibly for exporting them!?)

NB: There is no -3.5 setting presumably you either mean -3 or -4.5
Thanks I will try the stereo export see if the same and your right I meant -3 pan law. The reason I always do a split file export it's because every video editor uses avid when they import stereo interleave files the software split them , so I was worried so that's the reason?
Should I keep sending them splits file or it would be better to send stereo files?
Grim wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:24 pm
Thanks for the kind words.

you're correct that the pan law is certainly the same regardless of control room being on or off.
I'm guessing the issue is with re-importing the 2 channels as mono files and panning them again....not that there is any actual difference in what is output by control room or stereo out.

My first test at this point would certainly be to try a stereo export...if this sounds the same when re-imported then the split files and pan law are confirmed as the problem.
ok I will do the test

Many thanks
JFR
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:59 pm

Grim wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:31 pm
I get somewhat confused thinking too hard about pan law but I suspect the combo of split files and the pan law may be the issue.

If you don't specifically need split files render stereo which should sound the same regardless.
Otherwise you need to play around with pan law settings for playing these split files back (or possibly for exporting them!?)

NB: There is no -3.5 setting presumably you either mean -3 or -4.5
Hi i'm back !
Thanks again here are my finding after doing every possible different kind of audio mix down export settings and to me
'i'm confuse because not much makes sense ! The only thing i was able to null completely was my 1 Khz tone and i will explain
for years i've been working like that the only track going directly to the stereo output with no plug ins is my tone, and
for the rest as a master i would create and group track as pre master with all my stereo bus master plug ins routed to my stereo output.And that's
so knowing this i did moved all my plug -ins to my master stereo ouptut and deleted my pre master group! After i did audio mixdown export of Control room on and off stereo and split files and nothing null all the way i've tried every combination possible so and nothing null perfectly ?? So i'm confused! So could it be plug-ins doing this ? But if that is true then it mean you can"t ever get the exact same mix at every export
because the plug-ins are affecting the audio engine differently ? Or could DC offset in files cause this because most OMF i get from
the video editor as DC offset? And for the Control Room monitoring is sound bit different then if i monitor directly from output
like i said before not much but enough ? But the the export audio mixdown of the control room on or off sound the same and the
the same as if i monitor from the stereo ouput ? So to really to know how your mix is going sound in the export is to monitor with the control room off ?
All my export where done no Dither at -3 Pan law.And for the control Room when it's on my stereo output is not connected but the monitor in the control room is connected ? and no plug in in the control room and at 0 Any help would be great i could supplies files if wanted?



Many thanks
JFR
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:33 pm

My first test at this point would certainly be to try a stereo export...if this sounds the same when re-imported then the split files and pan law are confirmed as the problem.
I don't actually see the answer to this? When importing the STEREO export back to Cubase does it sound the same as playback or not?

I do see you say at one point that the export through control room sounds the same as the one not through control room. So that's good.

But this statement worries me....hopefully just not exactly what you mean or things get more complex.
And for the Control Room monitoring is sound bit different then if i monitor directly from output
like i said before not much but enough
So do you really mean that what you hear through control room sounds different to switching to stereo out (which would be something you hadn't said).....or are you just referring to the fact that it sounded different AFTER mixdown and re-import.

Null testing doesn't work with plugins....I'm afraid you proved/disproved nothing with any of that.
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:42 am

Grim wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:33 pm
My first test at this point would certainly be to try a stereo export...if this sounds the same when re-imported then the split files and pan law are confirmed as the problem.
I don't actually see the answer to this? When importing the STEREO export back to Cubase does it sound the same as playback or not?

I do see you say at one point that the export through control room sounds the same as the one not through control room. So that's good.

But this statement worries me....hopefully just not exactly what you mean or things get more complex.
And for the Control Room monitoring is sound bit different then if i monitor directly from output
like i said before not much but enough
So do you really mean that what you hear through control room sounds different to switching to stereo out (which would be something you hadn't said).....or are you just referring to the fact that it sounded different AFTER mixdown and re-import.

Null testing doesn't work with plugins....I'm afraid you proved/disproved nothing with any of that.
Hi ! when I import the stereo or the split files it's sound the same as the session if I monitor with the stereo output but if go back to monitor with the control room the session sound different better stereo image and the way I intended the mix it but the files that I imported sound the same as if I monitor out of the stereo output?

And for monitoring question yes when I monitor my session with the control room it's sounds better better stereo image and the dialogue sit perfectly the way I mixed it but when monitor with stereo output dialogue are a bit louder and I lose a bit of that stereo image so from now on I will be mixing only monitoring with my stereo output so I will be getting exactly what I'm hearing!

So your telling me that if I mix with plug ins when i re import my exported mix it will never null completely with
the session ? Ok I did not know thanks

The last thing I need to test is monitoring with the control room doing real time bounce I mean spdif out to spdif in
To see if sounds the same. I wish we could select the control room out as a option when doing a audio mixdown export !

Many thanks for your help
JFR
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:17 pm

And for monitoring question yes when I monitor my session with the control room it's sounds better better stereo image and the dialogue sit perfectly the way I mixed it but when monitor with stereo output dialogue are a bit louder and I lose a bit of that stereo image
Not sure where you can go from here but I can assure you that if set up correctly there is no audible difference between stereo out and control room out. I just flipped between them to be sure this wasn't some bug introduced in recent versions but the output is identical.

Unfortunately as this is a system setting I can't offer to take a look at a cpr as it wouldn't transfer any control room setup.

I apologise for this but nevertheless, I'm going to ask one more time to be sure....you're 100% certain there are no plugins in the control room inserts....you have the rack open and are seeing the empty insert slots??
While you're there you also have the control room volume knob at unity gain?
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:28 pm

Grim wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:17 pm
And for monitoring question yes when I monitor my session with the control room it's sounds better better stereo image and the dialogue sit perfectly the way I mixed it but when monitor with stereo output dialogue are a bit louder and I lose a bit of that stereo image
Not sure where you can go from here but I can assure you that if set up correctly there is no audible difference between stereo out and control room out. I just flipped between them to be sure this wasn't some bug introduced in recent versions but the output is identical.

Unfortunately as this is a system setting I can't offer to take a look at a cpr as it wouldn't transfer any control room setup.

I apologise for this but nevertheless, I'm going to ask one more time to be sure....you're 100% certain there are no plugins in the control room inserts....you have the rack open and are seeing the empty insert slots??
While you're there you also have the control room volume knob at unity gain?
Hi !
Sorry lol this is the last i promise ! I've attach a rar files with all my settings screenshots in PNG from the sessions,
If you could look at them to see if you can notice something wrong in my set up? it would very hepful and again thanks
for your help? And 1 more question if i export 2 mix with all the same export setting 16 bit 48 Khz stereo interleaved wave file
the only difference is Control /room on and control room off and i import them in a new session no plug ins 2 stereo track
going directly the main output, Why won't they null 100% ?

Thanks
JFR
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Re: Control room

Post by Grim » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:34 pm

JFR wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:28 pm

Hi !
Sorry lol this is the last i promise ! I've attach a rar files with all my settings screenshots in PNG from the sessions,
If you could look at them to see if you can notice something wrong in my set up? it would very hepful and again thanks
for your help? And 1 more question if i export 2 mix with all the same export setting 16 bit 48 Khz stereo interleaved wave file
the only difference is Control /room on and control room off and i import them in a new session no plug ins 2 stereo track
going directly the main output, Why won't they null 100% ?

Thanks
JFR
I don't see anything wrong with your setup at all.

If the session that you are rendering has plugins it may well not null, vst instruments almost definitely won't null....if the re-imported files aren't sample accurately aligned it won't null.
If you export only audio no plugs then you should be able to make it null 100%. What difference signal are you seeing?

Also I think you already realise this but turning control room on or off isn't doing anything there....CR is not in the render path. If you export 2 consecutive mixes without changing anything they should have similar differences.
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Re: Control room

Post by JFR » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:18 am

Grim wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:34 pm
JFR wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:28 pm

Hi !
Sorry lol this is the last i promise ! I've attach a rar files with all my settings screenshots in PNG from the sessions,
If you could look at them to see if you can notice something wrong in my set up? it would very hepful and again thanks
for your help? And 1 more question if i export 2 mix with all the same export setting 16 bit 48 Khz stereo interleaved wave file
the only difference is Control /room on and control room off and i import them in a new session no plug ins 2 stereo track
going directly the main output, Why won't they null 100% ?

Thanks
JFR
I don't see anything wrong with your setup at all.

If the session that you are rendering has plugins it may well not null, vst instruments almost definitely won't null....if the re-imported files aren't sample accurately aligned it won't null.
If you export only audio no plugs then you should be able to make it null 100%. What difference signal are you seeing?

Also I think you already realise this but turning control room on or off isn't doing anything there....CR is not in the render path. If you export 2 consecutive mixes without changing anything they should have similar differences.
Ok lied lol i did a few more test? Monitoring from the CR makes a difference when you do an export audio mixdown ! i did a real time audio mixdown export and if you what to hear want your bouncing audio you have to monitor from the control room on if not you don't hear anything ? So i did 2 exports one in real time and not real time both with CR on Monitoring and they almost null 100% and then i did another export not in real time of the same sessions everything exacly the same except i'm monitoring from the main stereo output and CR is off and instead of almost 100 null i get maybe 75 %? so i'm confused? it can't be the same? If you what i can send you files?

Thanks a lot for you help but i'm confused ?

JFR
Cubase Pro 10.0.50 , Cubase Pro 9.5.50 , MCDSP all bundle V6 , Intel Core I5 3570 S1155 IVY Bridge , ASUS P8Z77-V PRO , Corsair VENG 8 GB ram ,ASUS RADEON HD5450 silent 1GB
Focusrite USB Scarlett 6i6 ,Event TR6 monitors , Windows 7 Pro 64 bit

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