Looking for the answer....

Find topics on computers, studios and music-related hardware.
basyl666
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am
Contact:

Looking for the answer....

Post by basyl666 »

Hey guys,check this out!How come my mixes,that I've done about a year ago,sound way better than the ones,that I've been working on right now?????What's wrong?The funniest thing is:!....is that the mixes from "the past" have been made on my dell computer speakers with a little help of my cheap SONY(DJ headphones),and now I've upgraded to ADAM A7x,and beyerdynamic pro 770 ,did all the thricks,with the room acoustics,learned a ton from all the forums available out there,and ooops!What a bummer!!!!!....for a reference I went back to my older mixes and find out that I'm going backwards ......The world is up side down...I'm raedy to give up mixing.any thoats,my cubase 6 friends???

User avatar
mr.roos
Senior Member
Posts: 1610
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by mr.roos »

Well, don't blame the software if that is your thought.

Probably your monitor speakers as they perform in your mixdown room. Your new headphones might be adding to the confusion because they might seem to have more bass than your monitors.

With your monitors, you could have a bass bump in your mixdown (due to a standing wave cancellation at the mixdown position) because you are adding bass that isn't needed. Here, the question I would ask is: Are the new mixes worse because of the bass frequency content? In the headphones you probably have more bass than you had with your old headphones, and typically more than your monitors might seem to have IN YOUR ROOM if there is a standing wave problem. You tell me.

FWIW, it may even be that your old mixdown gear focused things in a way that let you find the magic when the mixes were played back on better gear. ?? On this note, some studios have a reference ghetto blaster type speaker setup to hear things in the real world. Maybe you mix better on ghetto gear right now? And this could change.

I think what's interesting is that you feel that you can hear that you used to do a better mix. Is this playing your old mixes on the new speakers? Or playing the new mixes on your old gear? The car? The home stereo? Either way, you are hearing something that makes you ask, "Why?" To me this is a sure sign of personal growth actually. :) I suspect you will adapt to your new gear in time.
Cubase 10.5 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, Groove Agent 5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (2004 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), 1K iRig Pads, StudioLogic Numa Compact 2X 88-Key, and Roland FP-30.

User avatar
Split
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Split »

Different speakers/headphones, different room acoustics, thetas you're problem. You need time to learn the new acoustics. Of course you may well have made things worse with the acoustic treatment. What and how did you go about treating your room?
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

Crotchety
Senior Member
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Crotchety »

Using Adams, are you? That's what I've got and in spite of loving the sound they give I'm getting to the point where I have to admit there are not giving me very transferable mixes. To get the mid-range sorted out I end up mixing on my tiny Dell speakers...

I think you and I might have a similar problem.
Instruments: Piano/keys, Guitar, Mandolin, Vocal
Current Sounds: Cactus Juice (@Soundcloud) - Former Sounds: Ask Murt (@MySpace)

Every day's a skool day...

basyl666
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by basyl666 »

Gentelmen,thank you for your posts...
mr.roos the trouble frequencies in my room are 500Hz and 2000Hz-5000Hz ,(so it's not the low end)these are the areas where I always have to atteniuate heavy,to make my mixes sound half way decent.My older mixes soung better,than the new ones played on all different types of systems.Strange?
split :as far as my room treatments I hung up some 24"x24" foam panels.My room is 11'x12' ,I've got 8 panels on the front wall and 8 on the back wall spreaded out evenly,two on the ceiling.too much?speakers are 3 feet away from the front wall ,and set up accoring to the diagrams I've been founding all over the place.But I think you're right about making,everything worse also.I ran some pink noise,sine waves,used RE Wizard.....and no results.
Crotchety thank god I'm not the only one..I've heard something on "sound on sound" podcast that if your mixes dont sound right it's either a bad source or a bad room (nobody said anything about speakers) .In my case I dont think it's the source,because I dont record my own stuff,so I couldn't screw that part up.
there's definetly something wrong,and I don't know what it is.
thanks guys!

User avatar
Split
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Split »

A 11' by 12' is almost a square room, very bad acoustically as the modes are almost the same for length and breadth.

Acoustic foam panels will absorb mostly in the mid to upper frequencies leaving the bottom end untreated.

Are you experiencing to much mid to top in your mixes?
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

Crotchety
Senior Member
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Crotchety »

Regarding standing waves, which will give you plenty of bassy boom in your room about the size of mine, wouldn't it be better to sit as near to a wall as possible, where the standing waves will be at their lowest amplitude?

I don't do this and I've just realised it might help a lot.

A lot easier than building slanted panels on your wall so they're no longer parallel, which I hear is another way of dealing with them.
Instruments: Piano/keys, Guitar, Mandolin, Vocal
Current Sounds: Cactus Juice (@Soundcloud) - Former Sounds: Ask Murt (@MySpace)

Every day's a skool day...

Conman
Senior Member
Posts: 2116
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:31 am

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Conman »

The simplest way to check a room's acoustic is to play (loaded into Cubase) commercial material that suits your style (after first playing it OUTSIDE that room, a room where you'd normally just play music but not record).

Set all eqs flat thuout the system. Windows, Soundcard, then Cubase etc (my belt & braces, Cubase should probably override all). See what it sounds like. See what needs boosting or reducing (in that room on that system) and make notes.

Deleting the material and saving a template should get you close to a stable eq state where anything mixed referencing those notes and using the template should now play in your OUTSIDE room at mix levels that sound appropriate to your style and it should be near optimum and should, if I got this explanation right, be pretty close as you monitor your Cubase Projects thru the Adams.

Though you may need to make a new template for the headphones.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

basyl666
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by basyl666 »

Split :yes,my mixes have too much upper mids in them.
Crotchety :I'll try to move my speakers as you suggested as close to the wall as possible.See what that'll do.
Conman :great tip,I'll try that also.
thans for everything.cheers

Crotchety
Senior Member
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Crotchety »

basyl666 wrote:Crotchety :I'll try to move my speakers as you suggested as close to the wall as possible.See what that'll do.
Not the speakers - you! A simple standing wave is biggest in the middle and zero at its ends - the walls in this case - so the closer you are the smaller the amplitude. There's always other effects to consider but worth a go maybe by actually putting your head in a few likely places before you go shifting the furniture around.

Putting your speakers close to the wall will make them bassier. Corners are even worse. Don't work in one.

:D
Instruments: Piano/keys, Guitar, Mandolin, Vocal
Current Sounds: Cactus Juice (@Soundcloud) - Former Sounds: Ask Murt (@MySpace)

Every day's a skool day...

basyl666
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by basyl666 »

ooops!please forgive me,and thanks for clarifying that :oops:

Crotchety
Senior Member
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Crotchety »

basyl666 wrote:please forgive me
Hmmm, let me think about that... :twisted:
Instruments: Piano/keys, Guitar, Mandolin, Vocal
Current Sounds: Cactus Juice (@Soundcloud) - Former Sounds: Ask Murt (@MySpace)

Every day's a skool day...

User avatar
Split
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Split »

basyl666 wrote:Split :yes,my mixes have too much upper mids in them.
Could be due to too much absorption on the walls, or a lack of absorption at lower mids/bass, or more likely both.

In a square(ish) room of 12' putting some bass absorption in the corners may help balance the sound a bit.

I'm guessing the ceiling is quite low to?

The key is getting the balance right, all upper-mid and high absorption without the countering low absorption can lead to overly bright mixes due to prominent lower mid/low and reduced upper energy in the room.

On the back wall a diffuser is a good thing and mid absorption on the side walls with bass traps in the corners, using the mirror trick.
Also using the same trick for the ceiling in the mixing position.
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

Crotchety
Senior Member
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Crotchety »

Split wrote:the mirror trick.
Just imagine for a moment that I've never heard of that... :)
Instruments: Piano/keys, Guitar, Mandolin, Vocal
Current Sounds: Cactus Juice (@Soundcloud) - Former Sounds: Ask Murt (@MySpace)

Every day's a skool day...

User avatar
Strophoid
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 4648
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Strophoid »

The mirror trick is fairly straighforward. Imagine all your walls and ceilings are mirrors. Now from your listening position, look around you in the mirrors and mark where you can see your speakers. Those are the spots you'll get the best use out of accoustic treatment.
Software: Steinberg Cubase Pro 8 64-bit.
Hardware: Intel i5 6600, 16Gb DDR3, Win7 64-bit
Mackie Onyx 1620i - Steinberg Midex 8 - Steinberg CC121.

My humble contributions to what could be considered music.

Crotchety
Senior Member
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Crotchety »

Oh, right, I know what you mean. Never heard it called that, though. Good name and thinking of it like that makes it easier to see. Thanks.
Instruments: Piano/keys, Guitar, Mandolin, Vocal
Current Sounds: Cactus Juice (@Soundcloud) - Former Sounds: Ask Murt (@MySpace)

Every day's a skool day...

basyl666
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by basyl666 »

Split ,thaks again for sharing your knowledge.as far as the ceiling hight,it's pretty much standard,about 8 feet..what do you think about the free standing base traps,and the DIY(do it yourself)ones?Are they any good?It's not that I'm cheap,I'm just little poor lately..Plus in my room,there will be no way to instali the permanent ones.Also,I know that It's not adviseble to try to build your own defusers.Thoes things are a bit more complex,than most of the people think.and a bookshelf just wouldn't do the trick http://youtu.be/4nzmBhkR4JQ

User avatar
Split
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Split »

Good video, notice the recording done next to absorption sounds quite dull next to the others.

Diy bass absorbers are a good way to go if you can afford the time, the cheapest and easy way to achieve some low absorption is to use rockwool in the corners.

Heres a good thread:-http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-tra ... ted-3.html
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

User avatar
Strophoid
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 4648
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Strophoid »

That was an interesting video, thanks for sharing :D
Software: Steinberg Cubase Pro 8 64-bit.
Hardware: Intel i5 6600, 16Gb DDR3, Win7 64-bit
Mackie Onyx 1620i - Steinberg Midex 8 - Steinberg CC121.

My humble contributions to what could be considered music.

User avatar
Split
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Split »

Crotchety wrote:Oh, right, I know what you mean. Never heard it called that, though. Good name and thinking of it like that makes it easier to see. Thanks.
haha... If you get someone with a real mirror and move it about the room walls, then it's even easier to see :mrgreen:
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

User avatar
Southae
Junior Member
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Southae »

Hi, Folks!

Conventional "box" loudspeakers also suffer from what's now referred to as the "Allison Effect". Back in the mid-1970's, speaker designer, Roy Allison, uncovered the fact that the distance from the loudspeaker driver to adjacent large surfaces, such as the back wall behind the front facing loudspeaker box, or the side wall adjacent to them, creates pronounced resonances based on the distance (and speed of sound in air) between the driver and the large surfaces. This leads to bass and mid-frequency boost and "suck-out" at frequencies who's wavelength's approach this physical distance [1 foot is about 1KHz in wavelength/frequency). There are ways to deal with it, but no matter where standard "box" loudspeakers are setup in a room, this effect will occur to some extent. (Roy eventually designed some superb loudspeakers with angled panels to couple the driver output to adjacent walls or floor, resolving this bass and mid-bass issue; along with developing probably the best wide dispersion tweeters ever designed. Alas, the company is no longer in business, although Roy is still consulting on loudspeaker designs, last I heard, and recovering from some serious health issues.)

Most folks don't realize that although you may have the most well respected equipment in the biz, including a fabulous set of gear, the room they're placed in has at least an equivalent impact on the sound you ultimately hear. The room is an integral part of the listening "system" and rivers of ink (and now electrons!) have been spilled discussing how to address this interaction and performance between room and playback equipment. About the only way to overcome some of the shortcomings of producing in any space, is to listen to much live music, on location, and then recreate, as close as you can, a similar sound in multiple listening envirnoments using varying grades of playback equipment. This helps educate your hearing to recognize what's good and what's not so good for both production and listening. Ultimately, the best choice is to build a proper production studio. But this is a luxury only very few can afford, and even then, if you don't have an expert with a long list of successful references, you may still wind up with an unsatisfactory production / listening environment.

Not that this helps a lot, but is may help shed some light on the discussion, and some of the reasons why room interactions are critical to listening spaces.
AES ;:-)

Just my 2 bits, 0 and 1!

ASUS Z-87 Expert MOBO, i7-4770K HASWELL Processor, 32GB RAM
ASUS GTX 770 Video, Corsair H-60 CPU Cooler & 550 Quiet Case
w/Samsung 512GB SSD Boot, & WIN 10 [ARRGH!] - 23% Overclocked
And a few other laptops!!!
Echo Layla 24/96
Mackie 1604 VLZ/XDR
AKG, B&K, DPA, Royer, Schoeps & Sony Microphones, & Homebrew Quadriphonic Jecklin Disk
Pushing Way Over 10 Terabytes of Storage (GAD!)
And AWAAAAYY We Go!

basyl666
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by basyl666 »

Crotchety!thank you x100.It took me a while to figure out your approach about trying to sit as close to the wall as possible ,but I finaly got it and... it works 1000% for now.

User avatar
Split
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Split »

basyl666 wrote:Crotchety!thank you x100.It took me a while to figure out your approach about trying to sit as close to the wall as possible ,but I finaly got it and... it works 1000% for now.
That would indicate your problem is the rooms low end is way out of whack.
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

basyl666
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by basyl666 »

thank you! I also noticed,when I was walking around the room trying to listen closely to what was changing,I find out that the bass was most audible on the side walls where I have my foam panels(famous mirror trick),and almost gone rigt in the center of the room(typical)... :?: so does it mean that the solution would be instaling some bass traps,or I should say as many of them as possible(since there's no way to overdo it)?

User avatar
Split
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Looking for the answer....

Post by Split »

It seems that you would benefit by installing some bass traps, as you are probably sitting in a bass light point. thus mixing either too bass heavy and/or not enough mid/top.

You need to try and get the room more balanced over the entire frequency range. As I pointed out, your room at low frequencies is more or less square so both the front to back and the side to side walls will have the same problems.

It's too much to go into here, there are plenty of very good sites out there that go into detail on how to deal with these problems from a DIY perspective.

Maybe think about trying some form of analysis of your rooms problems so you can more effectively target the type and placement of treatment required rather than a chuck stuff in and hope approach.
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

Post Reply

Return to “Computer/Studio Hardware & Setup”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests