missing chord symbols

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smailjazz
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missing chord symbols

Post by smailjazz » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:01 pm

I couldn't create Csus(b2). And it seems it is not possible to write all non-altered tensions like C7(9/13).

FlowerPower
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by FlowerPower » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:57 pm

smailjazz wrote:I couldn't create Csus(b2). And it seems it is not possible to write all non-altered tensions like C7(9/13).
It's quite common to write C13 instead of C7(9/13). And I've never seen C sus (b9) until today, I think it's hardly ever used (but I've played it!).

I agree that it should be possible to write uncommon chords as well, or to force Dorico to write chords the way you want them, because this would make it easier for people to establish standards for chords there isn't a common practice for yet.

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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by davidstephengrant » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:31 pm

Csus(b2) as in C, Db, G; not Csus4(b9), right? I haven't come across this convention - you can get Dorico to draw Csus(b9), although this is not exactly what you are after. In playback this will still always include either the natural 2 or 4, depending on how you enter it.

As for C7(9/13), Dorico recognizes the convention of often implicitly omitting 11ths in dominant 13th chords - if you play back a C13 chord from the chord track in play mode you will notice there is no 11th included in the chord. You could explicitly omit the 11th from a C13 with no/omit, but again this is not exactly what you are asking for.
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RichardTownsend
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by RichardTownsend » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:44 pm

smailjazz wrote:I couldn't create Csus(b2). And it seems it is not possible to write all non-altered tensions like C7(9/13).
I would expect C13 to imply the 7 and the 9
And is there is a reason you don't want to use the more usual Csus(b9)?
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smailjazz
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by smailjazz » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:31 pm

Because Csus2 or Csus#4 are very common, why not use Csusb2 or even C(b2)? With C(b2) the player can decide if to play sus or add b2. In general I prefer: Lower numbers are chord notes, higher numbers are tensions.

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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by GTBannah » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:49 pm

RichardTownsend wrote:....
I would expect C13 to imply the 7 and the 9
....
.... AND the 11 .... dissonant chord that it is ....
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by Fuzzface » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:01 pm

smailjazz wrote:I couldn't create Csus(b2). And it seems it is not possible to write all non-altered tensions like C7(9/13).
I'm wondering if this can be done in the new graphical editor, which comes in the next update.
Perhaps Daniel can jump in and explain a bit closer, what the graphical editor can accomplish.

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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by RichardTownsend » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:06 pm

GTBannah wrote:
RichardTownsend wrote:....
I would expect C13 to imply the 7 and the 9
....
.... AND the 11 .... dissonant chord that it is ....
Normally I would play a 13 chord without the 11. Otherwise as you say it would be dissonant.
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by GTBannah » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:10 pm

I guess there are different schools of thought on chord spelling. Do you include the 3rd in your 13th chord?
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smailjazz
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by smailjazz » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:36 pm

"different schools of thought on chord spelling"
1. leave it up to the player, which tensions to add and write C7. Mostly used in lead sheet notation
2. in big band charts often all tensions are mentioned: C7(9/13)
3. I think C13 for lead sheet notation was established by Sher Music: if the Melody is a 13 and the chord symbol is a C7 they use C13 as a chord symbol.
I'd prefer version 1 or 2, because C13 sometimes causes discussions.

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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by GTBannah » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:40 pm

I lean towards C13 = BbMaj 7/C, including the "F". Leaving it to the player may lead to discussions, but discussions lead to clarity of intent and requirements.
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by Rob Tuley » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:30 am

FlowerPower wrote:I agree that it should be possible to write uncommon chords as well, or to force Dorico to write chords the way you want them, because this would make it easier for people to establish standards for chords there isn't a common practice for yet.
Most of the problems are caused by the fact that too many people have already created different "standards," even without using Dorico to help them create even more ;)

Imagine what music notation would be like if writing notes on a staff was as chaotic as chord symbols are! :shock:

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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:49 am

Rob Tuley wrote:
FlowerPower wrote:I agree that it should be possible to write uncommon chords as well, or to force Dorico to write chords the way you want them, because this would make it easier for people to establish standards for chords there isn't a common practice for yet.
Most of the problems are caused by the fact that too many people have already created different "standards," even without using Dorico to help them create even more ;)

Imagine what music notation would be like if writing notes on a staff was as chaotic as chord symbols are! :shock:
:lol:
Derrkins

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RichardTownsend
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by RichardTownsend » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:41 am

GTBannah wrote:I guess there are different schools of thought on chord spelling. Do you include the 3rd in your 13th chord?
Yes, speaking just for myself, I would. In the left hand I might voice it as E-A-Bb-D, leaving the root to the bass.
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:39 am

RichardTownsend wrote:
GTBannah wrote:I guess there are different schools of thought on chord spelling. Do you include the 3rd in your 13th chord?
Yes, speaking just for myself, I would. In the left hand I might voice it as E-A-Bb-D, leaving the root to the bass.
.... omitting the "F". Hmmm

I was taught, that a "true" 13th must have all seven notes; C-E-G-Bb-D-F-A, even if the bass plays the "C", in the configuration/voicing that the situation requires. In other situations, use one of the "approximations", such as "BbM7/C", "C9 add A" or any of the many other variations.

Earlier, someone said, that they leave the voicing to the player. I don't feel safe that way. I try to provide as much clarity as I can. That one note makes a difference in the sound.
Derrkins

If that's really what you hear, Play It, Sing It, Write It or Program It!

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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by FlowerPower » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:18 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
FlowerPower wrote:I agree that it should be possible to write uncommon chords as well, or to force Dorico to write chords the way you want them, because this would make it easier for people to establish standards for chords there isn't a common practice for yet.
Most of the problems are caused by the fact that too many people have already created different "standards," even without using Dorico to help them create even more ;)
Fair enough, but even if nobody would expect the Dorico staff to do anything to evolve how people write chord symbols, Dorico should IMO allow me to create chord symbols that Dorico isn't aware of. And - while talking about chaotic chord symbols... sometimes it's useful to add some very simple chord symbols. Some examples:

Writing C5 could be a simpler way top write C (no 3).
Writing C3 could be a simple way to write C (no5),
C8 could be a simple way to tell the player that right here, all the composer wants from the piani player's left and is two Cs, an octave apart.
And so on.

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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by FlowerPower » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:23 pm

GTBannah wrote:
RichardTownsend wrote:....
I would expect C13 to imply the 7 and the 9
....
.... AND the 11 .... dissonant chord that it is ....
If you check out a few dozens songs that contain a C13 chord, you'll find that most of these would sound wrong with an 11 in it.

So... In theory:
A C7 contains a 1, 3, 5 and b7.
A C13 contains a 1, 3, 5, b7, 9 and 11.
But in real life, A C13 usually do not contain an 11. If I wanted a C13 with an 11, I'd probably write Bb maj 7/C.
Last edited by FlowerPower on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RichardTownsend
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by RichardTownsend » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:55 pm

FlowerPower wrote:
GTBannah wrote:
RichardTownsend wrote:....
I would expect C13 to imply the 7 and the 9
....
.... AND the 11 .... dissonant chord that it is ....
If you check out a few dozens song sthat contain a C13 chord, you'll find that most of these would sound with an 11 in it.

So... In theory:
A C7 contains a 1, 3, 5 and b7.
A C13 contains a 1, 3, 5, b7, 9 and 11.
But in real life, A C13 usually do not contain an 11. If I wanted a C13 with an 11, I'd probably write Bb maj 7/C.
Hi flower power, did you mean 'most of these would sound wrong with an 11 in it'?
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Re: missing chord symbols

Post by FlowerPower » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:32 pm

RichardTownsend wrote:
Hi flower power, did you mean 'most of these would sound wrong with an 11 in it'?
Hi - yes! Thanks, I've edited that post now.

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