Panning a track with a FX track on send

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rumlee
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Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:24 pm

I have a FX track with a reverb plugin, and I have a track with a Vsti on. Problem is, that if I add the FX reverb as a send on the vsti track, then the panning effect is not as strict as if used as an insert on the track directly. I did try to pan the send effect too, but the panning effect is still very tiny. How do you pan when using send effects?
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:47 pm

Well not all reverbs are equal in the way they apply themselves. Some of them sum stereo to mono at input, others may follow send panning and others (not many) are true stereo and follow the source.

Some possible things to play with and try to get the result you are after:
1. Send panning....if the reverb is true stereo then panning the send may be all you need - Open channel editor and under Sends switch to panning tab
2. The stereo combined panner will give you more control of a reverb return...you can narrow the stereo field even to mono
3. Maybe even just try a mono FX track with your reverb...you can pan with the instrument or you can pan it to opposite for more unusual effect that can create more width.

Oh...and just in case...make sure the reverb is set 100% wet.
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:16 pm

Grim wrote:Well not all reverbs are equal in the way they apply themselves. Some of them sum stereo to mono at input, others may follow send panning and others (not many) are true stereo and follow the source.

Some possible things to play with and try to get the result you are after:
1. Send panning....if the reverb is true stereo then panning the send may be all you need - Open channel editor and under Sends switch to panning tab
2. The stereo combined panner will give you more control of a reverb return...you can narrow the stereo field even to mono
3. Maybe even just try a mono FX track with your reverb...you can pan with the instrument or you can pan it to opposite for more unusual effect that can create more width.

Oh...and just in case...make sure the reverb is set 100% wet.
The only way, that I can make the reverb follow the panning completely is by panning the fx track itself, which is then panning all the tracks using that send, or by inserting the reverb directly on the track. I am using revelation reverb always. I am sure of, that it is the intension to being able to pan individually with the send panning feature, but the reverb effect or some of it stays in the middle even after panning 100 L or R. So I guess, That I have to use inserts instead of FX channels. Unless I missed something?

ps.: i just tried to create a FX channel with the stock stereo delay, and other distortion plugins and used as a send and tried to pan it hard right, and here it works perfectly only sound+effect in the right side. but the reverb stays in the middle when used as send, not when it is used as an insert... maybe I should look for a different reverb plugin to test..
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:57 pm

yes....replace Revelation with Reverance
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:44 am

Grim wrote:yes....replace Revelation with Reverance
I tried REVerance and 3rd party reverb, and still hering reverb in the left side if panning hard right when using the reverb as a send. If I use the reverb as an insert, there are no problems, only effect in the left side, when panning hard right. So I guess, that I have to use reverb effects as inserts and not as a send...
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:49 am

I tested Reverence yesterday and it appeared to be doing exactly what you want.

Are you sure you are panning the instrument channel AND the send panner full right?
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:06 pm

Grim wrote:I tested Reverence yesterday and it appeared to be doing exactly what you want.

Are you sure you are panning the instrument channel AND the send panner full right?
Yes I am sure, when I do it with other effects, it works fine. When I use a reverb as an insert and pan it hard right or left I can see on the master bus, that it only sends the sound on one side and nothing on the left. But when I use a reverb as a send and pan it hard right or left, the master bus shows a signal on both left and right. If you create a FX track with a reverb, and then use the reverb as a send on a track, try to pan it hard right or left and then take a look at the master bus. Does it only show a signal on one side, or does it show a signal in both left and right? If it only shows a signal on one of the sides, it must be a problem in my Cubase.
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by svennilenni » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:03 pm

rumlee wrote:If you create a FX track with a reverb, and then use the reverb as a send on a track, try to pan it hard right or left and then take a look at the master bus. Does it only show a signal on one side, or does it show a signal in both left and right?
It does of course show a signal only on one side.

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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:54 pm

Yes...not with any reverb though. With Reverence as I said.

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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:01 pm

Grim wrote:Yes...not with any reverb though. With Reverence as I said.

Image
Yes, please see this video of Reverence (tried several reverbs, same problem) please notice the master bus still showing a signal on both sides even when the send is panned hard right/left. notice when I
use the reverb as an insert how it is panned correctly on the master bus. So is this a bug?

https://youtu.be/q3ToDUF2_04
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by svennilenni » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:03 pm

Grim wrote:Yes...not with any reverb though. With Reverence as I said.

Image
Sorry, I was talking about panning the reverb, not the sending track.

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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by svennilenni » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:06 pm

rumlee wrote: So is this a bug?
No it is not a bug. As insert with balance panner, one side of the signal is simply muted. Whereas the send is still stereo. You can achieve the same result with a send, by balance panning the reverb return channel. Just like in real life, you also get reverberation from all sides of a room, no matter where the sound source is located.

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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:30 pm

svennilenni wrote:
rumlee wrote: So is this a bug?
No it is not a bug. As insert with balance panner, one side of the signal is simply muted. Whereas the send is still stereo. You can achieve the same result with a send, by balance panning the reverb return channel. Just like in real life, you also get reverberation from all sides of a room, no matter where the sound source is located.

please take a look at my video and at the screen shot from Grim. In the screen shot from Grim, the signal is only showing in the same side, as it is panned. In my video it is in both sides. Why?
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:40 pm

Grim wrote:Yes...not with any reverb though. With Reverence as I said.

Image
please look at the screen shot, i am doing exactly the same as you, but still having signals in both right and left.
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:46 pm

Could you upload that cpr for me to try here.
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:50 pm

Grim wrote:Could you upload that cpr for me to try here.
yes how do i do that? it says cpr is not allowed
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by svennilenni » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:56 pm

Which impulses have you loaded?

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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:58 pm

You would zip it....but there is no need..in C8.5 I do get the same result as you. I'd forgotten this was in the C8 forum and was testing in C9.

So unless there is some odd preference that is set differently I'd say it's a bug in Cubase 8.5
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:00 pm

Grim wrote:You would zip it....but there is no need..in C8.5 I do get the same result as you. I'd forgotten this was in the C8 forum and was testing in C9.

So unless there is some odd preference that is set differently I'd say it's a bug in Cubase 8.5
ahh ok but fixed in 9 then good to know thanks Grim :-)
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:10 pm

svennilenni wrote:Which impulses have you loaded?
impulses? you mean plugins? Only a FX track with reverb Reverence on, that is it. its an empty project.
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:14 pm

rumlee wrote:
svennilenni wrote:Which impulses have you loaded?
impulses? you mean plugins? Only a FX track with reverb Reverence on, that is it. its an empty project.
Reverence is a convolution reverb that works with impulses.
Not relevant now, as I used the same default setting in both versions with different results.
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by svennilenni » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:15 pm

The bug is rather in C9 then.
@Grim could you try the same with Revelation in C9, and compare the Revelation output meter with the Cubase channel meters, if you have some spare time?

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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:02 pm

svennilenni wrote:The bug is rather in C9 then.
@Grim could you try the same with Revelation in C9, and compare the Revelation output meter with the Cubase channel meters, if you have some spare time?
why do you think, that it is a bug in 9? Other effects in cubase 8.5 are being panned to the side perfectly 100%, but not reverbs. why would reverbs need to send a signal in both sides, when delay, distortion and others are being panned completely perfectly to one side? if the signal is stays in both sides, what is the purpose of panning...
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by Grim » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:47 pm

svennilenni wrote:The bug is rather in C9 then.
@Grim could you try the same with Revelation in C9, and compare the Revelation output meter with the Cubase channel meters, if you have some spare time?
Yes...behaves as I would expect. What is your point with this?

EDIT - On further consideration I do think you are right that the bug is in C9 not C8.5.
Panning the send changes the source position but reflections should come from across the stereo field too.

Still not sure on the point of the Revelation check though??
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Re: Panning a track with a FX track on send

Post by rumlee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:37 pm

Grim wrote:
svennilenni wrote:The bug is rather in C9 then.
@Grim could you try the same with Revelation in C9, and compare the Revelation output meter with the Cubase channel meters, if you have some spare time?
Yes...behaves as I would expect. What is your point with this?

EDIT - On further consideration I do think you are right that the bug is in C9 not C8.5.
Panning the send changes the source position but reflections should come from across the stereo field too.

Still not sure on the point of the Revelation check though??
Why is the reflection not there when using the reverb as insert and panned hard to the left/right then? And why does other plugins on send not have reflections like delay? I would definitely prefer, the result as in Cubase 9, because if I pan hard right/left, it is because I want it hard right/left, without any reflections.... I hope, that 9 is correct and 8.5
Is bugged...
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