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Please remove this thread.

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:33 pm

Trump it. I'm done.
Last edited by ShikiSuen on Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:01 am, edited 11 times in total.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Michael Aves » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:33 pm

ShikiSuen wrote: 7. Terminology: I know your developing team is in London. However, users may expect North American English terminologies of music. E.g.: Use "measure" in lieu of "bar"; Use "measure line" in lieu of "bar line". In such case, you Steinberg could either: 1) provide a configurable option through the application preferences of Dorico; 2) do a survey to see people's preferences.
It could be that UK-based users, particularly those, shall we say, of a certain age (e.g. me) would only "expect" North American terminology in the same spirit of weary resignation that we expect Microsoft products to default to American page sizes and spelling. By all means give those who prefer North American usage the chance to have it, but please allow us quaint old Brits to keep our hemidemisemiquavers, minims and breves. And our bars (I'll raise a glass to that).

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:48 pm

ShikiSuen wrote:7. Terminology: ... "measure line" in lieu of "bar line".
Do you have any reference that claims "measure line" is correct American Musical English?

I've never seen it, and this https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kUV ... ic&f=false (written by a professor of music theory, music history and analysis at Julliard) states that it is wrong.

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:02 am

Rob Tuley wrote:
ShikiSuen wrote:7. Terminology: ... "measure line" in lieu of "bar line".
Do you have any reference that claims "measure line" is correct American Musical English?

I've never seen it, and this https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kUV ... ic&f=false (written by a professor of music theory, music history and analysis at Julliard) states that it is wrong.
"Measures" is simply what my orchestration professor suggested me to use for counting bars when I was talking about my marked history essay with him 6 months ago. (e.g.: "mm. 3-6" in lieu of "bar 3-6".)

Maybe what I supposed is wrong. Probably this varies among different schools or even different professors. Anyway, I will respect the book you consulted: use barline in lieu of measure line.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:07 am

Americans refer to measures but to barlines and not measure lines. Don't try to assign standard logic to this or, for that matter, to anything in the extremely eclectic English language!
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Stephen Taylor » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:09 pm

For what it's worth I'm a professor at an American university (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) and I use "bar" and "measure" interchangeably.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by fratveno » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:41 pm

BarMeasure.jpg
(33.2 KiB) Not downloaded yet
from the doc options of a rather famous American notation app... :)
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Robert Enns » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:52 pm

In that example I (North American) wouldn't have to think twice about what was meant by bar or measure. Third bar or third measure. Either. I wouldn't consciously notice any difference.
Now hemidemisemi quaver does force a moment of panic as I have to think what is that in normal terms. Let alone having to say it out loud with a straight face or, even worse, having to write it more than once in a lifetime.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by MarkSealey » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:00 pm

By the same token - and without a hint of hostility - I prefer minim to 'half note' when it's actually a quarter - of the breve ;).

But then - I'll grant you - a breve is hardly the briefest of notes…
Robert Enns wrote:…with a straight face or, even worse, having to write it more than once in a lifetime.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Robert Enns » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:15 pm

Well the British have always been masters of making sure foreigners would have difficulty figuring out meanings. They certainly wouldn't be able to pronounce words correctly given their spelling. Who would expect "St. John Smith" to be pronounced "sinjin smyth"? It's taking an already difficult task, given English spelling ambiguity, to a whole other level.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:28 pm

This situation actually made me disappointed: Nobody till now in this thread talks about anything other than terminology among what I listed in my original post.
Last edited by ShikiSuen on Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
[Laptop] MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2017 CTO, Core-i7 Kaby Lake (Quad-Core 2.8GHz), 16GB RAM.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:31 pm

MarkSealey wrote:By the same token - and without a hint of hostility - I prefer minim to 'half note' when it's actually a quarter - of the breve ;).
The American (and German, for that matter) usage is based on the whole-note unit and the shorter values are the logical arithmetical fractions of that main unit. Isn't the British use of 'crotchet' for a quarter note based on a misunderstanding of the French 'croche', meaning eighth note? After all, the origin of crotchet or croche is 'hook', representing the flag of an eighth note. Another meaning of crotchet is 'a strange attitude or habit'! :D
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by fratveno » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:15 pm

ShikiSuen wrote:This situation actually made me disappointed: Nobody till now in this thread talks about anything other than terminology among what I listed in #1.
Actually, I'm totally in favor of #9 in your original post!
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:12 pm

fratveno wrote:
ShikiSuen wrote:This situation actually made me disappointed: Nobody till now in this thread talks about anything other than terminology among what I listed in #1.
Actually, I'm totally in favor of #9 in your original post!
The #9 and #10 is to remove overlapping functionalities among Steinberg products, saving their developer resources to other things more meaningful (e.g. deeply improving each products for their purposes of being made; improving compatibility to latest mac models, etc.).
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
[Laptop] MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2017 CTO, Core-i7 Kaby Lake (Quad-Core 2.8GHz), 16GB RAM.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:32 am

It's been a long while ago and I see none of Dorico team members replied to this thread. Probably it is too long to reply. :)
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
[Laptop] MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2017 CTO, Core-i7 Kaby Lake (Quad-Core 2.8GHz), 16GB RAM.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by Bill at Steinberg » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:50 am

ShikiSuen wrote:It's been a long while ago and I see none of Dorico team members replied to this thread. Probably it is too long to reply. :)
No it's not been too long ShikiSuen! Hopefully I can add something useful to another of your feature requests.

Regarding your wish to use CMD+Y for Redo - if you go to Edit -> Preferences... and then choose the Key Commands tab, you can set your own choice of key commands for Redo (as well as many other functions), so you can set CMD+Y for it here. We don't want to dictate what you use as your key commands, just offer a default set to get things started :)

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:59 pm

Bill at Steinberg wrote:
ShikiSuen wrote:It's been a long while ago and I see none of Dorico team members replied to this thread. Probably it is too long to reply. :)
No it's not been too long ShikiSuen! Hopefully I can add something useful to another of your feature requests.

Regarding your wish to use CMD+Y for Redo - if you go to Edit -> Preferences... and then choose the Key Commands tab, you can set your own choice of key commands for Redo (as well as many other functions), so you can set CMD+Y for it here. We don't want to dictate what you use as your key commands, just offer a default set to get things started :)
You didn't figure out what I meant. Using CMD+Y on macOS for Redo is logically unacceptable and may disrespect possible guidelines made by Apple. Despite my awareness of the possibility to modify the key bindings in Dorico, my feedback is related to what Dorico defaultly performed on macOS.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by John at Steinberg » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:19 pm

I think what you mean is that Ctrl/Cmd + Y is more a Windows / PC way of doing redo - e.g. Microsoft Word (even on Mac)?

In Photoshop / Apple Pages etc (even Chrome as I type) it is Cmd + Shift + Z on Mac.

I don't have all the apps installed on both Mac and PC to check...

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:24 pm

John at Steinberg wrote:I think what you mean is that Ctrl/Cmd + Y is more a Windows / PC way of doing redo - e.g. Microsoft Word (even on Mac)?

In Photoshop / Apple Pages etc (even Chrome as I type) it is Cmd + Shift + Z on Mac.

I don't have all the apps installed on both Mac and PC to check...
What you think is correct. Apple should have provided documents of guidelines regarding user-interface design, including ways of interaction through hotkeys.

P.S.: Regarding the hotkey of Redu function, what Microsoft Office 2016 does on macOS is subject to being filed as a bug report. I will find my way to send this feedback to Microsoft APEX team.

P.P.S.: I updated my initial post to improve the reasoning description.
Last edited by ShikiSuen on Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
[Laptop] MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2017 CTO, Core-i7 Kaby Lake (Quad-Core 2.8GHz), 16GB RAM.
[Desktop] Mac Pro Cylinder late-2013, Xeon E5-1650 (Hexacore 3.5GHz), 32GB RAM.

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:40 pm

I found the official documentation provided by Apple.

To Public Users: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236

To macOS Developers: https://developer.apple.com/library/con ... 7-CH84-SW4
It is written at the bottom of Table 72-2 (see attachment for screenshot reference):
Complementary command shortcut: Shift-Command-Z
Complementary command: Redo (when Undo and Redo are separate commands rather than toggled using Command-Z)
Complemented command shortcut: Command-Z (Undo)
With a special notice written prior to where the table is placed:
IMPORTANT: Always respect the system-reserved keyboard shortcuts in your app so that users aren’t confused when the shortcuts they know work differently in your app.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
[Laptop] MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2017 CTO, Core-i7 Kaby Lake (Quad-Core 2.8GHz), 16GB RAM.
[Desktop] Mac Pro Cylinder late-2013, Xeon E5-1650 (Hexacore 3.5GHz), 32GB RAM.

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by pianoleo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:28 pm

ShikiSuen, I think you're approaching this from one point of view, and Steinberg are approaching it from another.

From your point of view (and clearly Apple's) Cmd-Shift-Z is appropriate, and should be consistent throughout all macOS programs.

From Steinberg's point of view, Cmd/Ctrl-Y is appropriate, because it's consistent on Mac and Windows.

Here in the UK (where Dorico is produced) many educational establishments use Windows computers everywhere except in the composition labs and recording studios (and in the cases of schools, music classrooms). The students and staff use Windows in the library, in the office, in every other classroom.

You could argue that educational establishments are niche, but according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_sha ... _computers Mac users make up less than 11% of the general computing population worldwide, and Windows users make up over 80% of the remainder.

I'm guessing that Steinberg (and Microsoft) are betting on most Dorico Mac users being used to Windows shortcuts, and keeping Dorico consistent with what Windows users are used to for these reasons.

If you're so bothered, change the shortcut in your own copy of Dorico.

(P.S. I loathe the fact that when I use a PC with a UK English keyboard the @ and " symbols are swapped, but again, I'm an exception to the rule!)
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:34 pm

pianoleo wrote:Shiki, I think you're approaching this from one point of view, and Steinberg are approaching it from another.

From your point of view (and clearly Apple's) Cmd-Shift-Z is appropriate, and should be consistent throughout all macOS programs.

From Steinberg's point of view, Cmd/Ctrl-Y is appropriate, because it's consistent on Mac and Windows.

Here in the UK (where Dorico is produced) many educational establishments use Windows computers everywhere except in the composition labs and recording studios (and in the cases of schools, music classrooms). The students and staff use Windows in the library, in the office, in every other classroom.

You could argue that educational establishments are niche, but according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_sha ... _computers Mac users make up less than 11% of the general computing population worldwide, and Windows users make up over 80% of the remainder.

I'm guessing that Steinberg (and Microsoft) are betting on most Dorico Mac users being used to Windows shortcuts, and keeping Dorico consistent with what Windows users are used to for these reasons.

If you're so bothered, change the shortcut in your own copy of Dorico.

(P.S. I loathe the fact that when I use a PC with a UK English keyboard the @ and " symbols are swapped, but again, I'm an exception to the rule!)
You completely ignored what I said at my 1st post: "If this is meant to help Windows users using Dorico on macOS, then please make BOTH of them work." This feature request would surely not hinder those people (whose grey matter have been soaked by MS Windows for dozens of years) from using CMD+Y (or even CTRL+Y) on macOS. Also, from your perspective, the ideal shortcut key for macOS version of the app should be CTRL+Y in lieu of the CMD+Y which ditched the logical sense of consulting the CMD key. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Furthermore, you should omit those statistics of computers used in occasion of non-music areas. I still appreciate your dare of consulting Wikipedia, regardless the political correctness of dismissing informations from Wikipedia.

P.S.: Here in University of Lethbridge over 75% of computers in our faculty of Music are running macOS. Also, almost all students in Digital Audio Arts are macOS users.
Last edited by ShikiSuen on Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
[Laptop] MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2017 CTO, Core-i7 Kaby Lake (Quad-Core 2.8GHz), 16GB RAM.
[Desktop] Mac Pro Cylinder late-2013, Xeon E5-1650 (Hexacore 3.5GHz), 32GB RAM.

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by pianoleo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:56 pm

I apologise for missing your idea of making both shortcuts work, and reject your (IMO pedantic) idea of of using the Ctrl key rather than the Cmd key on Mac - it would go against absolutely every other Mac program I've ever used.

One quick addendum: Cmd-Y performs the Redo action in BOTH Sibelius AND Finale. It may be that (given other Steinberg programs used Cmd-Shift-Z) THIS is the reason the default in Dorico is Cmd-Y.

Just a thought...

P.S. I see no reason to disregard information from StatCounter, a respected computer market-share research outfit, even if their data happens to be quoted on Wikipedia.
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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:06 pm

pianoleo wrote:I apologise for missing your idea of making both shortcuts work, and reject your (IMO pedantic) idea of of using the Ctrl key rather than the Cmd key on Mac - it would go against absolutely every other Mac program I've ever used.

One quick addendum: Cmd-Y performs the Redo action in BOTH Sibelius AND Finale. It may be that (given other Steinberg programs used Cmd-Shift-Z) THIS is the reason the default in Dorico is Cmd-Y.

Just a thought...
Then this surely breaks the hotkey consistency among Steinberg products. Cubase for macOS uses CMD+SHIFT+Z in lieu of CMD+Y, and so does Wavelab for macOS.

Reference:
http://www.haydockmusic.com/cubase_tips ... tcuts.html
viewtopic.php?p=109222

I will also file the bug report to MakeMusic and AVID to allow them make CMD+SHIFT+Z work on their apps for macOS. Note that MakeMusic usually won't be in a talking mood listening to feature requests from general public (but from their certain little social circle which consists of notationists in North America… just like Freemasonry but less mysteric).

Oh: My idea has nothing like what you said "rather than…". :D I just pointed out the illogical way of using CMD key for hotkeys.

P.S.: Information from Wikipedia is helpful once the content of an entry is proved academically correct / reliable. It is generally used for helping paper writers think on what shall they do next, with required additional proof of source reliability.

# EOF.
// My first name is Shiki. A trilingual Chinese living in Japan.
My nationality doesn't prove anything, but I do have issues with my English.

[DAC + Monitor] laptop built-in DAC & Native Instruments Komplete Audio 2, ATH-M70X;
[DAW + OS] PreSonus Studio One 4 & Steinberg Cubase Pro 10 on macOS 10.14 Mojave;
[Notation Tool] Steinberg Dorico Pro 3;
[Laptop] MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2017 CTO, Core-i7 Kaby Lake (Quad-Core 2.8GHz), 16GB RAM.
[Desktop] Mac Pro Cylinder late-2013, Xeon E5-1650 (Hexacore 3.5GHz), 32GB RAM.

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Re: [1.0] Time to enumerate my accumulated feature requests.

Post by pianoleo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:12 pm

I think you missed:
(given other Steinberg programs used Cmd-Shift-Z)
I think you also missed:
Cmd-Y performs the Redo action in BOTH Sibelius AND Finale.
I'd be very interested to know how what proportion of Dorico customers are not already long-term users of Sibelius OR Finale, but that'd be sensitive data and I'm sure Steinberg won't give us that information.

Feel free to file all the bug reports you like, but I can't see established software companies changing shortcuts that have existed for 20+ years - it'd irritate all of their loyal customers (possibly with the exception of your good self).
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