Panning issue

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Panning issue

Post by moreno » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:49 am

This may well be a duh kinda question, but....

I noticed this first with guitar audio tracks. Even if I am panned center, the guitar sounds like it is coming more from the left in playback. In fact, if I pan right the guitar drops out completely. I can’t find any setting that is making it record left. I then noticed that at least on a vocal track I have just done if I now pan right, the voice thins out, though unlike the guitar does not disappear completely, and if I pan left – on an already recorded track, that is – the voice loses none of its volume.
I just now tested and used a preset Clean Guitar and Voice to set up a new project and the guitar is panned left. I then created new audio track, same thing.
This is a mono in stereo out set up, so perhaps once I mix down into stereo the panning is balanced, or?
If it is not that, what might be causing this?

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Re: Panning issue

Post by Prock » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Some things to check...

Most important... verify that the input bus you are using is set as a mono bus in the VST connections menu.

I always record my mono audio input buses to a stereo audio track (not mono audio track) which goes to the main stereo output bus.

Reason... if you assign a stereo vst effect to a mono audio track recorded from a mono audio bus only the left side of the effect can be heard.

I was questioned about that advice so I started a brief thread about it that you can look at in the link below. It lists a few other routing methods that hopefully will also take care of this concern.

viewtopic.php?f=198&t=100307

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Re: Panning issue

Post by silhouette » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:53 pm

I assume that you are talking about inserts here Prock. Obviously on a mono track you will not get a stereo efx. Also you will not be able to balance the dry and wet signal unless the EFX has wet/dry controls. If I am applying delay or reverb I would inevitably use a send for my effects. These of course can apply stereo to the mono signal as the efx buss is usually stereo, provided that is how you have set it up. Of course if you are wanting to use a chain of efx you can still create this in a send channel, with the advantage of being able to balance the effects against the dry sound of the original channel.

Just a thought. If you use VST3 efx they detect when they are being inserted onto a mono track and adapt accordingly.

I use mono channels all the time for guitar and have not noticed a bias to the left. In fact I am listening to a guitar track right now....dead centre.

Of course there is no reason not to use a stereo track. This can be good if you have two different amps/cabs miked up in stereo. However in this instance you have to be careful with the panning and make sure that you use the Stereo Combined panner. This will preserve the stereo integrity of your recording when you pan it, as you can define how wide you want the stereo image. You can find this above the Channel Setting windows meter - the downward arrow when the hover buttons appear. You can choose between the Stereo Combined Panner and the Stereo Balance Panner.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:02 pm

Hello,

the issue here is probably using a stereo input channel. When you have a stereo input, it defaults to Input 1 (Left) and Input 2 (Right). If you connect the guitar to Input 1, this will result in the guitar sound coming only out of the left channel.

Please, set a mono input in the VST Connections and assign it to the audio card's input you are using for the guitar (and remember to change the source on the audio track).

A mono input can be used to drive both a mono channel and a stereo channel (in this case, the same signal will be sent to both sides, not just left).
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Re: Panning issue

Post by Prock » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:22 pm

silhouette wrote:I assume that you are talking about inserts here Prock. Obviously on a mono track you will not get a stereo efx. Also you will not be able to balance the dry and wet signal unless the EFX has wet/dry controls. If I am applying delay or reverb I would inevitably use a send for my effects. These of course can apply stereo to the mono signal as the efx buss is usually stereo, provided that is how you have set it up. Of course if you are wanting to use a chain of efx you can still create this in a send channel, with the advantage of being able to balance the effects against the dry sound of the original channel.

Just a thought. If you use VST3 efx they detect when they are being inserted onto a mono track and adapt accordingly.

I use mono channels all the time for guitar and have not noticed a bias to the left. In fact I am listening to a guitar track right now....dead centre.

Of course there is no reason not to use a stereo track. This can be good if you have two different amps/cabs miked up in stereo. However in this instance you have to be careful with the panning and make sure that you use the Stereo Combined panner. This will preserve the stereo integrity of your recording when you pan it, as you can define how wide you want the stereo image. You can find this above the Channel Setting windows meter - the downward arrow when the hover buttons appear. You can choose between the Stereo Combined Panner and the Stereo Balance Panner.
Take a look at the link I posted... Try that quick experiment I list in that link and see what happens. When recording a mono audio bus to a stereo audio track you don't get a stereo recorded file. It is mono just like if recorded to a mono audio track. If you try that experiment please report back in that thread. Thanks

Regardless... the first thought in my first post above is probably the issue for this one.

Regards 8-)
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Re: Panning issue

Post by silhouette » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:23 pm

Prock wrote: Take a look at the link I posted... Try that quick experiment I list in that link and see what happens. When recording a mono audio bus to a stereo audio track you don't get a stereo recorded file. It is mono just like if recorded to a mono audio track. If you try that experiment please report back in that thread. Thanks

Regardless... the first thought in my first post above is probably the issue for this one.

Regards 8-)
I quite understand that it is basically a double mono file. However I probably did not explain myself well enough, as if for instance you use IK Amplitude on that stereo track and run two rigs panned left and right using the combined panner keeps the two signals audible, yet still placed in the stereo field.

To be honest I have never had any issues using mono tracks, as long as you understand the limitations when applying plugins. To be honest I don't usually pile a lot of effects on my guitars. An insert compressor or sometimes parallel compression, delay and reverb sends usually does the trick for me.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by Grim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:23 pm

silhouette wrote:
I quite understand that it is basically a double mono file.
It's not basically a double mono file...it is absolute 100% mono.
Double mono must have 2 channels. A file created as Prock describes has one channel only.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by silhouette » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:55 pm

Grim wrote:
silhouette wrote:
I quite understand that it is basically a double mono file.
It's not basically a double mono file...it is absolute 100% mono.
Double mono must have 2 channels. A file created as Prock describes has one channel only.
If you like, a stereo file containing two mono channels. A right channel and a left channel. It does have two channels as seen on the audio clip. I agree that double mono would have two separate tracks.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by Grim » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:27 pm

silhouette wrote:
If you like, a stereo file containing two mono channels. A right channel and a left channel. It does have two channels as seen on the audio clip.
Sorry but that's exactly the opposite of what it is.

It is a mono file containing 1 channel
There is no left and right as it's 1 channel
It definitely does not have 2 channels as shown on the audio clip
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Re: Panning issue

Post by svennilenni » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:36 pm

Most people dont get the "Mono Input bus" part.

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Re: Panning issue

Post by silhouette » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:53 pm

Grim wrote:
silhouette wrote:
If you like, a stereo file containing two mono channels. A right channel and a left channel. It does have two channels as seen on the audio clip.
Sorry but that's exactly the opposite of what it is.

It is a mono file containing 1 channel
There is no left and right as it's 1 channel
It definitely does not have 2 channels as shown on the audio clip

Thank you for the explanation. I feel an idiot here, as I have just created a part as you described. A mono clip is indeed the result. Weird as it is to say that when I use the mono input bus I always use it into a mono track. I have a Kemper Profiling Amp and for a guitar track in stereo I either run a mono or stereo feed with a stereo input bus with two channels out of the Kemper.

Does the resulting track take up the same space or size as a stereo track? Presumably if you can process with stereo efx insert there must be a left and right channel for the efx to work properly. It wouldn't be mono in stereo out? Or would it?
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Re: Panning issue

Post by Prock » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:11 am

Man... wish we could continue this conversation here...

I was trying to figure out why would I EVER want to record a mono audio bus to a mono audio track.

viewtopic.php?f=198&t=100307

Btw.... files recorded from a mono bus to a mono or stereo track are exactly the same size and a stereo track can be routed the same as a mono track if you see fit. The only difference I have been able to figure is that stereo inserts sound good when assigned to a stereo track and don't when assigned to a mono. Try the quick test I list in the link to see and hear what I have noticed.

Regards. 8-)
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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:02 am

Fabio Bartolini wrote: Please, set a mono input in the VST Connections and assign it to the audio card's input you are using for the guitar (and remember to change the source on the audio track).
So, in response to your suggestion, I pressed F4 and in INPUTS under Bus Name I see first Stereo in 1 (with left, right under), then Mono in 1 (here there is a speaker symbol just before ‘Mono in 1’, and then Mono in 2 underneath that. Do you mean I should change that first bus to Mono in 1?

IOW should I simply type in Mono in 1 where it now says Stereo in 1? - the guitar is hooked up to 1 and in the inspector it says Mono in 1 as input

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Re: Panning issue

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:31 am

Hello,

it pretty much depends on which interface you use and what you need to connect to it.
It is possible to create as many input busses as you want, even connected to the same physical inputs (or not connected, ready to be assigned depending on the source), and switch between them depending on the needs.

In the attached image you find an example made on the UR44. It includes a Stereo In, named Synth (assigned to the two line inputs on the back, 5 and 6) and four Mono Inputs, assigned to the four Mic/Hi-Z (1 and 2) and Mic/Line inputs (3 and 4). When that amount of inputs is not needed, you can also use presets with your most used configurations (i.e. one mono input, two mono inputs, one stereo input, one stereo plus one mono and so on).

Note that in that example, the mono input 'Guitar' is used to feed both Guitar mono tracks and the Stereo Guitar track.

The issue with the sound panned left would occur if using a Stereo Input assigned to input 1 (L) and 2 (R) which feeds a stereo track, with the guitar connected to Input 1.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:37 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote: In the attached image you find an example made on the UR44. It includes a Stereo In, named Synth (assigned to the two line inputs on the back, 5 and 6) and four Mono Inputs, assigned to the four Mic/Hi-Z (1 and 2) and Mic/Line inputs (3 and 4). When that amount of inputs is not needed, you can also use presets with your most used configurations (i.e. one mono input, two mono inputs, one stereo input, one stereo plus one mono and so on).

Note that in that example, the mono input 'Guitar' is used to feed both Guitar mono tracks and the Stereo Guitar track.

The issue with the sound panned left would occur if using a Stereo Input assigned to input 1 (L) and 2 (R) which feeds a stereo track, with the guitar connected to Input 1.
My needs are pretty simple. I basically want to create decent enough mp3s of my songs to give to friends and use as starting points with musicians, since right now I'm (enhanced by programs) doing everything. I had worked a little with a different DAW and recently got Cubase. In the other I simply recorded in Mono and then panned after in mixing, and it would pan. I looked at the image you sent and that seems likely more complex beyond my current needs. What's the simplest set up so that I can record, preferably in mono and then pan it after, more importantly that it is recording through the full pan.

I am working with a simple focusrite, two input card. I use 1 for instruments, 2 for voice mike. In my mixing board
where in your image under routing you have Guitar
Stereo Out

I have Mono 1
Stereo Out

Similar for Vox, though input is Mono 2. I just checked and the voice track disappears if I pan to the right, while the guitar disappears if I pan left. I have generally left both in center, perhaps the guitar just a little panned, and so I never noticed the problem before.

And in mine the little red orange speaker symbol is beside the mono input, not the stereo one above it, if that matters.
Last edited by moreno on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:44 pm

Prock and Silhouette, thanks for responding. I went with the response I understood the best.

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Re: Panning issue

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi, let's make it simple, then.

You just need two mono inputs - delete every buss you have and just create two mono ins.
Rename them after the sources you connected for convenience.

You will end up with the inputs set as in the pic attached.

As discussed, the guitar mono in can be used to feed both mono and stereo tracks - I personally tend to use mono guitar tracks, due to using different IRs that I can pan wherever is needed like I would do with recording captured with mics.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:15 pm

OK. I went to VST Connections while not in a project. I then deleted the three buses: a stereo in and two monos. Then I added two mono buses: which it automatically assigned to inputs 1 and 2. I then opened a new project - a preset with guitar and vocal tracks and effects. And it worked. I recorded a couple of bars and on playback I could pan both ways. So far so good.

I then opened a project I was working on and the VST Connections field opened with the project and it showed the old format, with the stereo input first on the list. The really odd thing was, I tried recording guitar. I saw the event forming, but it had not visible guitar sound. I have seen this before but always if this happens the moment you stop recording, the event disappears, but this time it did not. It just remained there empty.

In any case, is there a way for me to make this work in current projects that are already started?

I thought I would try removing the buses and adding the two monos in this project - perhaps with old projects the computer leaves the old format - but I was asked/warned that this stereo bus was being used and did I really want to delete.

In case it matters I deleted the original buses (busses?) by right clicking on the bus in the VST Connections field.

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Re: Panning issue

Post by Grim » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:28 pm

moreno wrote:
In any case, is there a way for me to make this work in current projects that are already started?
EDIT...sorry i misunderstood, lets try again...You could try saving the vst connections setup and loading into the new project....then you may also need to confirm the correct input is set for each track.
silhouette wrote:
Thank you for the explanation. I feel an idiot here,....

Does the resulting track take up the same space or size as a stereo track? Presumably if you can process with stereo efx insert there must be a left and right channel for the efx to work properly. It wouldn't be mono in stereo out? Or would it?
Not an idiot at all....you just made a wrong assumption as I think I probably did just the same when I first saw this written down....sometimes it takes trying something yourself to make it clear.
Prock wrote:Man... wish we could continue this conversation here...

I was trying to figure out why would I EVER want to record a mono audio bus to a mono audio track.

viewtopic.php?f=198&t=100307

Regards. 8-)
Am heading over to read and join the convo now...I still have one reservation that stops me using all stereo tracks so interested to see if it's been discussed.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:44 pm

Grim wrote:EDIT...sorry i misunderstood, lets try again...You could try saving the vst connections setup and loading into the new project....then you may also need to confirm the correct input is set for each track.
how do you save the vst connections set up? And how do you load it? (if these are different processes) What I did now was simply delete, then create the new set up. And then simply closed the VST connect box/field. No save option, though this seemed to make it the default set up. Is that saving? I did that outside of any project. Then when I started a new project, it worked fine. The problem came up when I opened an ongoing project. Do you mean, for example, open an ongoing project, and in that redo the VST connections set up and then save it, for that project and any other ongoing one?

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Re: Panning issue

Post by Grim » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:13 pm

In the vst connections dialogue there is a little presets box up top if you press the + you can name and save an input configuration and then easily load it into any project. As you discovered the saved project also saves the connections config so the preset is the quick way to load it back....you will only need to do this once for each project as saving them will write the new config as it's default.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:33 pm

Grim wrote:In the vst connections dialogue there is a little presets box up top if you press the + you can name and save an input configuration and then easily load it into any project. As you discovered the saved project also saves the connections config so the preset is the quick way to load it back....you will only need to do this once for each project as saving them will write the new config as it's default.
Just realized that I probably presented not enough information. I do use non-audio tracks also - groove agent and VST synth. Perhaps that was what it meant when it said I was using stereo.

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Re: Panning issue

Post by Grim » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:07 pm

VST instruments would have no bearing on input configuration.
It only tells you it's in use as it is currently selected as an input to a track or tracks in the project. Deleting this and leaving them with no input is not a problem, but as I said you may need to assign your new inputs to the tracks.
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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:33 pm

Grim wrote:VST instruments would have no bearing on input configuration.
It only tells you it's in use as it is currently selected as an input to a track or tracks in the project. Deleting this and leaving them with no input is not a problem, but as I said you may need to assign your new inputs to the tracks.
OK, I will see what I can do, troubleshoot new and ongoing tracks and see if I can manage it. If not, I'll come back here.

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Re: Panning issue

Post by moreno » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:30 pm

So here's the situation now:
I can start a new project, no problem. Audio tracks will be fully pannable.

I have gone to an ongoing project, used a preset with 2 mono buses, and now the already recorded audio tracks are pannable. Great. This means I can manage both old and new projects.

One issue, which I found a little odd.

In the ongoing project I opened a new track: audio, and this was not fully pannable, even though the project was running on that 2 track mono. I can get around this issue, but simply copying already existing audio tracks that are full pannable, but is there a reason I cannot make a new audio track that will record both left and right?

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