Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

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Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by lovegames » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:25 am

Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Workaround post below
viewtopic.php?f=291&t=171521&p=915718#p916149
Last edited by lovegames on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by Zinnematic » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:55 pm

Yes it does. Never noticed it before.

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by Getalife2 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:41 pm

lovegames wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:25 am
Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?
That's a lot of VCA. If I may ask, what are you doing with numbers 33+ ?
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:15 pm

Odd limitation though... like.. why?
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by Getalife2 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:17 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:15 pm
Odd limitation though... like.. why?
Maybe so that when they finally get 32 working right, they can add more and call it a new feature? :lol:
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by lovegames » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:37 pm

Getalife2 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:41 pm
lovegames wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:25 am
Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?
That's a lot of VCA. If I may ask, what are you doing with numbers 33+ ?
400 track template

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by lovegames » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:38 pm

Getalife2 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:17 pm
MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:15 pm
Odd limitation though... like.. why?
Maybe so that when they finally get 32 working right, they can add more and call it a new feature? :lol:
What is it that is not working right for you?

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by Getalife2 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:38 am

lovegames wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:37 pm

400 track template
Ahh, makes sense. You must be an Orch guy. Not for the faint of heart!

On the VCA issues. Don't use them much myself. I believe there are differences in the VCA implementation between Cubase and Nuendo. Not sure the assignments recall properly when saved in a Template and I seem to remember Automation issues. You should definitely vet this if you will be opening Cubase Projects in Nuendo. I don't think VCAs are happy with that.

MattiasNYC is kind of the expert on this stuff. Maybe he will chime in.
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by lovegames » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:39 am

Getalife2 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:38 am
lovegames wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:37 pm

400 track template
Ahh, makes sense. You must be an Orch guy. Not for the faint of heart!

On the VCA issues. Don't use them much myself. I believe there are differences in the VCA implementation between Cubase and Nuendo. Not sure the assignments recall properly when saved in a Template and I seem to remember Automation issues. You should definitely vet this if you will be opening Cubase Projects in Nuendo. I don't think VCAs are happy with that.

MattiasNYC is kind of the expert on this stuff. Maybe he will chime in.
I'm an everything guy, but it's a master template of which others will be deducted from.

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase?

Post by lovegames » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:05 am

So it's interesting, this limit can actually be bypassed but not without a warning each time you load the project.

I'd really appreciate comment from developers on this, if I am going to run into problems or if this bypass is safe?

So if you just try and plain add a VCA fader channel. You will get this prevention warning:
Image

But, if you use an 'Add VCA Fader to Selected Channels...' It will add a VCA and link it to the selected channels and function appropriately. It does not steal a operation of function from already existing VCAs that I can see.
Image
Image

Likewise, you can do the same through the link channels protocol:
Image


However every time you load a project with above 32limit, you will see this warning:
Image


But despite this warning, everything seems to work and CAN be modified. So, what is this all about?

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by lovegames » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:04 am

Nobody finds this interesting? alright

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:37 pm

lovegames wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:04 am
Nobody finds this interesting? alright
Those of us who answered are "nobodys"?
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by Sunshy » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:42 pm

There were so many issues (still are I guess) with vcas that I just never incorporated them into my workflow. I still find it interesting. You are my favorite "nobody" Matthias! ;)
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by lovegames » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:46 pm

The most useful thing about VCAs is they can be daisy chained, so you have VCAS controlling VCAs that are controlling audio tracks that are feeding into groups and those groups are summed into a single group. and you can have a separate VCA to control the sub-groups feeding the main group. Gain staging becomes very creative feeling

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by Getalife2 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:47 pm

Sincerely trying to be helpful here. I think you are asking for trouble nesting VCAs in Nuendo's current implementation. I'm fairly certain the implementation is different than in Cubase and I have no idea how well they work in Cubase.

Like the poster above I have never Incorporated them into my workflow as I've never believed they were solid. I think they're going to work fine for you until they don't at which point you will not be sure why the mix no longer nulls with what you printed the day before. I HATE that sort of thing.

If you do a search I think you'll see what I'm talkin about. People talking about everything was fine and then they pull the session up one day and VCA controlled faders were wrong. I think automating VCAs gets especially exciting.

And I think that explains why there's not more action here on your thread. A lot of us are waiting for something definitive to be done because there are little buglets sprinkled within the current VCA implementation by all accounts.
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by Getalife2 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:58 pm

Also. I worked for years on big Euphonix S5 48 fader, 156 input consoles. Virtually everything about Steinberg's automation was taken directly from those consoles. Even the control room is an almost identical copy as Euphonix and Steinberg were tag-teaming Eucon development. Steinberg learned a lot from those guys.

So with that being said, I am extremely familiar with the real-world implementation of VCAs. Used them a lot on the consoles including nesting tiered control of other VCA groups.. The fact that I don't use them at all in Nuendo should tell you something.
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by lovegames » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:23 pm

I haven't seen anything regarding what you describe on the Cubase forums.

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:09 pm

Sunshy wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:42 pm
There were so many issues (still are I guess) with vcas that I just never incorporated them into my workflow. I still find it interesting.
They can be tremendously useful, though it depends on the job and routing etc.
Sunshy wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:42 pm
You are my favorite "nobody" Matthias! ;)
awwwww...
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by Sunshy » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:53 am

Oh I definitely see their usefulness. I was just waiting for "things to get stable." But that was years ago so I just moved on. I was also switching between Cubase and Nuendo. Not sure why they were ever implemented differently. :oops:
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by lovegames » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:03 am

Sunshy wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:53 am
Oh I definitely see their usefulness. I was just waiting for "things to get stable." But that was years ago so I just moved on. I was also switching between Cubase and Nuendo. Not sure why they were ever implemented differently. :oops:
Sorry, can you explain to me what the difference is exactly?

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:25 pm

You can do a search here in the Nuendo section about it, or maybe in Nuendo 8 section. I can't remember off the top of my head but they were fundamentally a different approach. I think Fredo mentioned that Cubase users didn't like the Nuendo implementation in Cubase so they did something different.

Sunshy,

Last I checked, and that was a while ago, using automation nodes on all tracks that would be connected to a VCA solved the issues that were still there. That obviously doesn't work for everyone but the things I bumped into were fixed by Steinberg and anything else I saw others write about was addressed with that node at the beginning of the timeline. So I built my last set of templates with nodes already placed.

I'm not yet on v10 so I can't speak for how it looks now.
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by lovegames » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:11 am

Great so VCAs are pretty much - UNUSABLE. WHAT THE FK

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:13 pm

Like I said, if I remember correctly then placing automation nodes on tracks that VCAs control makes the VCAs work properly. That makes them usable with that workaround.

If I get sufficiently bored this weekend I'll download v10 and take a look.
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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by lovegames » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:33 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:13 pm
Like I said, if I remember correctly then placing automation nodes on tracks that VCAs control makes the VCAs work properly. That makes them usable with that workaround.

If I get sufficiently bored this weekend I'll download v10 and take a look.
Hmm, it's hardly a work around though. I guess if you are to add a node every time you run into this instance. But Templating nodes won't work as if you set an audio fader level and then go to right automation it will go into 'Read' and take the node 0db value for the rest of the track

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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:48 pm

It depends on what type of work you do and how you work.

If you're in post for example and are mixing just a plain old TV show to -24LFKS then it could very well be that you set dialog event level to close to -24LKFS and then ride faders to adjust for the dynamics of it. That can be done in various ways but I tend to use touch-trim when I do it even in Pro Tools which doesn't have this issue. I do it because it's easier to just quickly go back and, well, 'trim' something. So in this case I'm not bothered at all by the initial node. It makes zero difference.

If I'm riding music levels I'll probably go into latch for the first pass and so again it simply doesn't matter that there's a node there because I'll inevitably pull levels down before the first music hits anyway.

Or to state it all a different way: There's virtually no use-case for a lot of TV/broadcast/internet work where I don't end up writing automation from the beginning somewhere, and as soon as that's done there's an automation node there. So if it's there before initial writing or not makes zero difference.

I suppose if you're mixing music you might want it all clean and just move faders around without writing automation. I typically end up writing it anyway even if it's static because I want to be sure it recalls properly and avoid human error (i.e. I accidentally move a fader).

So for me templates worked in this regard.

What are the use-cases for you where you can't work with a template with an initial value of "unity gain" nodes at the top of the project?
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