The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

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The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ResonantMind » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:32 am

Video to audio, audio to video.. Which one comes first, is really open to any ones discretion these days.

There are forms of video and sound art that are never locked, and always changing.

Edit sound to video, or video to sound.

With the current project I am producing, it would make life much easier and quicker, and would suit the creative process.. to be able to edit video inside the DAW. Just basic basic one track video editing. Splice, Trim, Fade In/Out, Clip Cross fading, Clip Manager.

Most video editing programs have the bare minimum audio editing capability. But most DAWs on the market don't have any video editing capability with the exception of Acoustica MixCraft.

Why not give this opportunity for the composer and director, to work more closely with the video in the musical DAW, rather than have these processes so separated? Being able to do a rough cut while making the music. Or making music, then making the visuals. Then adding the visuals, then tweaking the music, then tweaking the visuals?

Just features. Splice, Trim, Fade In/Out, Clip Cross fading, Clip Manager.

Thanks
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ErikG » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:36 am

These are my opinions on the matter.

That is a very simplified view of the tools needed when editing.
How would you temp a needed split?
What type of video cross fades should be available?
Import export of XML/EDL?
Text scrolls?
Graphics handling?
Basic Color correction and LUTs? Etc.

While there may be quite a bit of overlap between picture and sound editing for Resolve to eventually mature to a usable level, I am quite sure it will never turn into a compositional tool.

I also do see the value of being able to link picture and sound during editing. But so far not even Avid has managed to do that. Adding a full NLE toolset to a DAW is no simple matter. And if it’s not a full NLE it is only useful for the odd type of productions that don’t need or use a professional workflow. Thus it is unlikely to make enough money to pay for the investment.

All IMO of course.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ResonantMind » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:02 am

ErikG wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:36 am
These are my opinions on the matter.

That is a very simplified view of the tools needed when editing.
How would you temp a needed split?
What type of video cross fades should be available?
Import export of XML/EDL?
Text scrolls?
Graphics handling?
Basic Color correction and LUTs? Etc.

While there may be quite a bit of overlap between picture and sound editing for Resolve to eventually mature to a usable level, I am quite sure it will never turn into a compositional tool.

I also do see the value of being able to link picture and sound during editing. But so far not even Avid has managed to do that. Adding a full NLE toolset to a DAW is no simple matter. And if it’s not a full NLE it is only useful for the odd type of productions that don’t need or use a professional workflow. Thus it is unlikely to make enough money to pay for the investment.

All IMO of course.
It would be ideal, if you could export XML so you could load the edit into Premiere and continue the edit there.

But as another user had pointed out on another thread that no longer exists (thankfully), Acoustica has accomplished this in their MixCraft software, even with video effects.

Text scrolls, I'd say no. Text overlay and positioning and still picture imports yes.


It's more about rough editing, musical transition timing, and just being able to work and be in a mindset that is sort of working in an opposite direction if it seems creatively appropriate for the project, than it is about having video editing implementation that results in a finished video product exported out of DAW. Most people would do the finished video in another program, although that's not say that this couldn't potentially be good enough for basic YouTube video editing. I envision it as more of a way to develop a testing stage in a project where the music/sound and visuals are developed together more closely, rather than one after the other.

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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ErikG » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:58 am

I fully get your point, I just don't think the user base at that "basic" level is large enough or financially strong enough to warrant the development to do this.

If it could make a lot of money, help workflow for most users while not stealing development resources from the DAW development, then I wouldn't mind it beeing included at all. If any of my points would be affected negatively (I think all of them would have to be) then I don't see a big enough upside to do it I am afraid.

And I fully realise that different types of users see this from diferent perspectives.
I do Feature films and TV Drama with decent budgets based on my location (low according to Hollywood standards, medium to high compared to many other countries). We would love a tool that would make it easier to achieve preliminary sound work while editing is ongoing. But not by sacrificing quality or workflow on either picture editing or sound. No current tools can deliver this yet. Resolve is closest though.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ResonantMind » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:20 am

ErikG wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:58 am
I fully get your point, I just don't think the user base at that "basic" level is large enough or financially strong enough to warrant the development to do this.

If it could make a lot of money, help workflow for most users while not stealing development resources from the DAW development, then I wouldn't mind it beeing included at all. If any of my points would be affected negatively (I think all of them would have to be) then I don't see a big enough upside to do it I am afraid.

And I fully realise that different types of users see this from diferent perspectives.
I do Feature films and TV Drama with decent budgets based on my location (low according to Hollywood standards, medium to high compared to many other countries). We would love a tool that would make it easier to achieve preliminary sound work while editing is ongoing. But not by sacrificing quality or workflow on either picture editing or sound. No current tools can deliver this yet. Resolve is closest though.
Maybe there is potential through ARA2 to have a video editing program hosted in the DAW? I'm not sure if that's even possible, but that would be very cool, and really, even better.

My only thought on why this could be popular... Is look at YouTube musicians and YouTube content creators. I mean, that would be the mass market to tap into. But then you have more niche markets that are quite big as well, a lot of electronic musicians are putting a lot of resources into creating visual experiences to the extent that it is a merged artform - it's more of a media presentation.

Definitely a risky endeavor, but it makes sense in my mind and I'm surprised more DAWs haven't tapped into this... It's all about the combined live music+visuals these days. All video programs are %90 video, %10 sound.. But DAWs are more like, %99 DAW, 1% video - it's just interesting is all.


I'm considering just running MTC or something to another computer running the video editor.

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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ErikG » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:03 pm

The problem isnt syncing them together, that is the easy part. The problem is editing on both simoultaneously, where some sounds needs to follow the video edits(dialog and hard effects), some sometimes need to follow, ambiances music and sound design elements, and what about the other way around? If you edit the sound or music, if/how/when/why should control if a video edit should happen as well?
This gets really complex really quickly.

That is why picture leads and sound follows for most work, apart from music videos and art installs.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ResonantMind » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:35 pm

ErikG wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:03 pm
The problem isnt syncing them together, that is the easy part. The problem is editing on both simoultaneously, where some sounds needs to follow the video edits(dialog and hard effects), some sometimes need to follow, ambiances music and sound design elements, and what about the other way around? If you edit the sound or music, if/how/when/why should control if a video edit should happen as well?
This gets really complex really quickly.

That is why picture leads and sound follows for most work, apart from music videos and art installs.
Yes, and I'm caught in the middle of the software tug of war to the max extreme with this particular project... It's really a project of combined mediums and will even be displayed to audiences in different ways.

There truly is no program that has this balance.

Of coarse we have workarounds, and have refined a working system that is as efficient as possible, but having these minor abilities in a DAW would expedite the creative process exponentially.

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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ResonantMind » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:16 am

Imagine if you could just share these basics between program using one .XML clip project database - maybe the video editor has started sequencing clips, has some placements, some clip crossfades, multicam cuts, and the video editor just saves to a software shared project folder with a .XML and then this can instantly be opened in Nuendo and all the same placements, crossfades, etc are right there in Nuendo and can still be tweaked. No rendering.

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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Rickard » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:12 pm

I would love to see something like this as well. I use Nuendo mostly for music production but I do get video projects where simple splicing is required. These projects rarely have set-in-stone video or audio. One influences the other, requiring going back and forth between programs, sometimes guessing where the edit should be.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by MattiasNYC » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:45 pm

While I don't mind this request conceptually I do have two concerns;

1. Allowing for more non-audio work to be done in a post-audio environment/situation risks far less efficient workflows. So in one sense I'm wondering if we won't lose out on productivity if this is the case. Granted, we may be heading that way anyway, as a matter of fact I think we are, and so it may be unavoidable and in the long term necessary to compete. But having said that I still feel it's a bit of a concern because I think several of us prefer to focus on audio and not have to deal with other things.

(Blackmagic design with its Davinci Resolve is an example of a company marrying the two, from the other side so to speak)

2. More importantly though I would be worried about everything that is not video in Nuendo. I think we need to look at Nuendo as a whole and then look at development cycles and both quirks and bugs as well as other features. I'm certainly not convinced that this is the best place to spend development money. In my opinion other features that could and maybe should be improved should come first. So the question then becomes what happens if Steinberg tries to make this happen; does the other stuff wait, does everything get developed simultaneously which then means either slower progress or less quality or more resources spent on r&d (i.e. probably higher cost for us)…..???
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Robin Walsh » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:41 am

I agree with MattiasNYC.

However, it would be amazing if you could just shorten a piece of video and replace the audio in one action straight from the project window. Nothing fancy, just really rudimentary, purely for preview.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:17 pm

I don’t want any video editing features in my DAW. Okey, replace audio for video is needed and also replace audio for a selected part of the video is needed and thus some basic video conversion options.
But why nothing else IMO? Because it is not my job to re-edit video. If something goes wrong and there are some mismatch in the final cut because I did some (asked) corrections. Who’s the one who pays for correcting it? Me?
And just ”some” video editing features would not be enough. The whole feature line up would be necessary including export different edls, video effects etc...
Now, how many new bugs this would introduce? Too many...
How much heavier this would make my DAW. Too much...
How complex the whole DAW would become? Too time consuming for me.

There are options for one man shows if video and audio editing needs to be done within on application...
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Robin Walsh » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Agreed
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ltf3 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:15 am

Video editing? Real video editing?

Please NO... a thousand times no!

I edit video in FCPX and Premiere... there’s no way shoehorning that type of workflow into a DAW wouldn’t ruin the DAW and make a crappy video editor.

If video is your bag and you want a decent audio experience then FCPX integrates a little bit of Logic in there, with a path into Logic. [ though I prefer moving to Nuendo or Cubase of course]

For matter give Resolve a try ... it’s free... and has everything in there. Not my cup of tea, but you can’t say it’s not a one-stop-shop!
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Heiner Einbier » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:08 pm

Video editing features in Nuendo?
Please. Not.
The last thing I need is some customer who's gotten on to the fact that I might be able to ammend a video edit in a picture-locked film I'm mixing. It's practically ASKING them to take the hand when we've offered a finger.
Only the POSSIBILITY of us being able to change editorial decisions and the production companies KNOWING this will open a whole new world of pain for us as well as the editorial staff:
What? The dialogue scene in the park at 13:34 is too long at the end? Oh, we'll just let the mix guy do it in his studio, no need to book the edit suite for another day... Hey, what's this? There's a flash frame at the cut now - how'd that happen? (Maybe because the audio guy doesn't have a class-1 monitor in his studio that can show interlaced video and why should he?) ... Hey, our master file's just been rejected by QC, they say the MXF container has material with the wrong codec ... But we're airing tomorrow!!! ... Aaaaah! ... Who's gonna fix this? ... Who's gonna pay for this??? ... and on and on.
I am already suspiciously eyeing Resolve in that respect, thankfully, for now, it's still a kick-ass CCR tool but still a crap NLE and a crap DAW. Let's hope it stays that way and never makes it to industry standarddom in either of the latter.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Heiner Einbier » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:17 pm

That is something I may need to clarify here for all you Steinberg R&D folks who are surely listening in ;)
When I asked you some time ago to include a replace audio feature for broadcast op1A files, I explicitly meant ONLY replace audio. I do not EVER in any way want to be able to influence the video content of said file... ^^
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Fredo » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:04 am

As you said, it would never work. On most of the pro-projects, multiple people are working on the same masters. (Editors, VFX, Grading, Composers, Foley, dialog edit, ...) Currently it already is a problem to have video's named, numbered, 2popped, BITC-ed & distributed to all concerned collaborators in a proper way.

For smaller single-person-projects there is Premiere, FCPx and Resolve.
Let's keep it that way.

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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ResonantMind » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am

Tumppi Järnefelt wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:17 pm
I don’t want any video editing features in my DAW. Okey, replace audio for video is needed and also replace audio for a selected part of the video is needed and thus some basic video conversion options.
But why nothing else IMO? Because it is not my job to re-edit video. If something goes wrong and there are some mismatch in the final cut because I did some (asked) corrections. Who’s the one who pays for correcting it? Me?
And just ”some” video editing features would not be enough. The whole feature line up would be necessary including export different edls, video effects etc...
Now, how many new bugs this would introduce? Too many...
How much heavier this would make my DAW. Too much...
How complex the whole DAW would become? Too time consuming for me.

There are options for one man shows if video and audio editing needs to be done within on application...
The idea isn't aimed at engineers holding commercial audio chairs in commercial audio editing studios where they clock in and out and are there only for one purpose.

I'm not sure a hypothetical "how many bugs would this produce?" is a valid point either because well... let me ask you, specifically, "how many new bugs would this produce? Exact number please". Maybe it wouldn't produce any new bugs, or maybe 1, or 2? Or Maybe 100. Still, It's no reason to not do something potentially inspiring new kinds of workflows.
Heiner Einbier wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:08 pm
Video editing features in Nuendo?
Please. Not.
The last thing I need is some customer who's gotten on to the fact that I might be able to ammend a video edit in a picture-locked film I'm mixing. It's practically ASKING them to take the hand when we've offered a finger.
Only the POSSIBILITY of us being able to change editorial decisions and the production companies KNOWING this will open a whole new world of pain for us as well as the editorial staff:
What? The dialogue scene in the park at 13:34 is too long at the end? Oh, we'll just let the mix guy do it in his studio, no need to book the edit suite for another day... Hey, what's this? There's a flash frame at the cut now - how'd that happen? (Maybe because the audio guy doesn't have a class-1 monitor in his studio that can show interlaced video and why should he?) ... Hey, our master file's just been rejected by QC, they say the MXF container has material with the wrong codec ... But we're airing tomorrow!!! ... Aaaaah! ... Who's gonna fix this? ... Who's gonna pay for this??? ... and on and on.
I am already suspiciously eyeing Resolve in that respect, thankfully, for now, it's still a kick-ass CCR tool but still a crap NLE and a crap DAW. Let's hope it stays that way and never makes it to industry standarddom in either of the latter.
Why would a customer who locked their own picture ask you to do, it doesn't make sense. and would you even be working off a full resolution copy of the locked-picture? Anyways, regardless of this feature... You decide what work you want and don't want to do always... And if someone wanted you to do this? You would turn down the money?

You're both speaking all this crazy hypotheticals to try and negate an idea, of which doesn't even have to really do with that field of work...? You guys need to listen to some Brian Eno or something, get a little outside the box.

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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:30 pm

I have done sound for film and tv over 30 years.
And if something is possible you are asked to do that. So all Heiners points are very much valid.

And so are mine. What you call hypothetical I call experince and wisdom.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:23 pm

ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
I'm not sure a hypothetical "how many bugs would this produce?" is a valid point either because well... let me ask you, specifically, "how many new bugs would this produce? Exact number please". Maybe it wouldn't produce any new bugs, or maybe 1, or 2? Or Maybe 100. Still, It's no reason to not do something potentially inspiring new kinds of workflows.
Look at how long it took to iron out some fundamental flaws in Nuendo 7. Look at the time it took to deal with certain issues in v8. Still some very strange things going on in 8.3.15 supposedly.

The question is if it is more beneficial for those who can afford to pay for Nuendo and stay up to date (professionals mainly) to have video editing capability rather than have those issues fixed. I think that's the fundamental question here. And what you need to ask yourself is; What are the odds that even if new bugs aren't introduced at a higher rate because video editing was added bugs that are 'normal' will take longer to fix?

I'll take bug fixes and improvements and enhancements of post-production specific features over added video stuff any day.
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
The idea isn't aimed at engineers holding commercial audio chairs in commercial audio editing studios where they clock in and out and are there only for one purpose.
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
Why would a customer who locked their own picture ask you to do, it doesn't make sense. and would you even be working off a full resolution copy of the locked-picture? Anyways, regardless of this feature... You decide what work you want and don't want to do always... And if someone wanted you to do this? You would turn down the money?
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
You're both speaking all this crazy hypotheticals to try and negate an idea, of which doesn't even have to really do with that field of work...? You guys need to listen to some Brian Eno or something, get a little outside the box.
I think you should listen to all the people that chimed in here. I don't wish to sound dismissive because I don't really know you personally, but you're talking to people with literally decades of experience in post production. Like Tumppi said; when something becomes possible clients start asking for it. Let me just give you at least some perspective:

When I started out all my work was done in Pro Tools. The system ran on a beige mac and included a Digidesign sync box that connected to a machine room where Beta decks were located. In the beginning picture was played back from tape in realtime. After a while we started digitizing video from tape (realtime), but we still laid back to tape (realtime again). The point here is that there was virtually zero time to mess with picture edits because changing something meant re-edit in the Avid, export new OMF, create new DigiBeta tape, physically get that tape to audio post, and at that point it's hours later. If you're in television this was a no-no. Locked mostly meant locked in those days.

Now fast forward to a few years ago when I started getting requests to send out audio-to-picture for review. No biggie. PT allows me to bounce to video. But then there was bouncing to shorter sections. And eventually people started asking if I could tweak edits that became problematic (i.e. lip-sync issues etc) and finally "Can we adjust color here?".

So, the question is really a deeper one here; how much different type work do you really want to do in post? Highly skilled professional or "Jack of all trades master of none"? Which ultimately pays most? Which is ultimately most rewarding.

-- AND: Are you prepared to not only be responsible for audio being to spec, but also video?

My guess is that you're actually right about things converging and that there's a benefit to it to decent size of the market, but the question is if it's better to add stuff to Nuendo or simply learn how to operate Resolve alongside Nuendo instead. I for one would rather become good at Resolve and very good at Nuendo than having to deal with upcoming issues with video features... and 'yes', I'm absolutely being a pessimist about that.

Pop-quiz: It's February 2019 and we're on Nuendo v8 - Can we export audio mixdown to picture yet?

The answer should tell you all you need to know about the potential issues of extensive video features.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by ResonantMind » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 pm

Tumppi Järnefelt wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:30 pm
I have done sound for film and tv over 30 years.
And if something is possible you are asked to do that. So all Heiners points are very much valid.

And so are mine. What you call hypothetical I call experince and wisdom.
Umm no, professional video film people who know what they are doing don't compromise their work to get an audio person to do video work. Maybe if your clientele consists mostly of unknown rappers or hipster artists doing budget music videos or something.. But this simply doesn't happen in film unless you are working with total amateurs which I avoid for reasons other than being asked to do what I don't do.

Secondly, I'm not asking for full featured video editor. It wouldn't be possible to do professional video work even if these features were to be included. What type of armature loser would want their professional film exported from an audio program? I wouldn't even work for that person.
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:23 pm
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
I'm not sure a hypothetical "how many bugs would this produce?" is a valid point either because well... let me ask you, specifically, "how many new bugs would this produce? Exact number please". Maybe it wouldn't produce any new bugs, or maybe 1, or 2? Or Maybe 100. Still, It's no reason to not do something potentially inspiring new kinds of workflows.
Look at how long it took to iron out some fundamental flaws in Nuendo 7. Look at the time it took to deal with certain issues in v8. Still some very strange things going on in 8.3.15 supposedly.

The question is if it is more beneficial for those who can afford to pay for Nuendo and stay up to date (professionals mainly) to have video editing capability rather than have those issues fixed. I think that's the fundamental question here. And what you need to ask yourself is; What are the odds that even if new bugs aren't introduced at a higher rate because video editing was added bugs that are 'normal' will take longer to fix?

I'll take bug fixes and improvements and enhancements of post-production specific features over added video stuff any day.
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
The idea isn't aimed at engineers holding commercial audio chairs in commercial audio editing studios where they clock in and out and are there only for one purpose.
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
Why would a customer who locked their own picture ask you to do, it doesn't make sense. and would you even be working off a full resolution copy of the locked-picture? Anyways, regardless of this feature... You decide what work you want and don't want to do always... And if someone wanted you to do this? You would turn down the money?
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
You're both speaking all this crazy hypotheticals to try and negate an idea, of which doesn't even have to really do with that field of work...? You guys need to listen to some Brian Eno or something, get a little outside the box.
I think you should listen to all the people that chimed in here. I don't wish to sound dismissive because I don't really know you personally, but you're talking to people with literally decades of experience in post production. Like Tumppi said; when something becomes possible clients start asking for it. Let me just give you at least some perspective:

When I started out all my work was done in Pro Tools. The system ran on a beige mac and included a Digidesign sync box that connected to a machine room where Beta decks were located. In the beginning picture was played back from tape in realtime. After a while we started digitizing video from tape (realtime), but we still laid back to tape (realtime again). The point here is that there was virtually zero time to mess with picture edits because changing something meant re-edit in the Avid, export new OMF, create new DigiBeta tape, physically get that tape to audio post, and at that point it's hours later. If you're in television this was a no-no. Locked mostly meant locked in those days.

Now fast forward to a few years ago when I started getting requests to send out audio-to-picture for review. No biggie. PT allows me to bounce to video. But then there was bouncing to shorter sections. And eventually people started asking if I could tweak edits that became problematic (i.e. lip-sync issues etc) and finally "Can we adjust color here?".

So, the question is really a deeper one here; how much different type work do you really want to do in post? Highly skilled professional or "Jack of all trades master of none"? Which ultimately pays most? Which is ultimately most rewarding.

-- AND: Are you prepared to not only be responsible for audio being to spec, but also video?

My guess is that you're actually right about things converging and that there's a benefit to it to decent size of the market, but the question is if it's better to add stuff to Nuendo or simply learn how to operate Resolve alongside Nuendo instead. I for one would rather become good at Resolve and very good at Nuendo than having to deal with upcoming issues with video features... and 'yes', I'm absolutely being a pessimist about that.

Pop-quiz: It's February 2019 and we're on Nuendo v8 - Can we export audio mixdown to picture yet?

The answer should tell you all you need to know about the potential issues of extensive video features.
I despise the "decades of experience" point as if it is the end all be all. Like, new sh!t is happening post-your-30-years-experience.

You guys need to look outside the box a little bit, such a boring traditionalist type conversation.

I'm here saying my work and future project and experiments would benefit from this capability, directly. I don't care about your hypotheticals. The video programs do not have musical workflow. Your hypothetical's to me just sound so boring and irrelevant. I'm here saying I need this. Plenty of people are doing mixed media visual sound art and working in new ways. The sound is coming before the video.

If you don't want to edit video, don't... Or do and take the money? Or tell the client the audio software is not full resolution? Sorry but none of your points have been valid, or rather, don't invalidate what I've assessed and know is needed and there is a gap in the market none of the DAWs have capitalized on.
The answer should tell you all you need to know about the potential issues of extensive video features.

I keep saying "Doesn't need to have extensive video features just bare basic and you guys keep saying "ALL THE ISSUES THERE WOULD BE IF YOU HAD A DAW WITH EXTENSIVE VIDEO FEATURES" :lol:

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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:30 pm

Well, you have your points. Fair enough.
But don’t disrespect me or my experience or people I work with.

Sounds to me you can have what you want already. Get resolve. Ditch Nuendo. For me Nuendo is the best one can get if one works with audio post in film and tv.

I do work with professionals in film and tv. And I do know that stupid things are wished when deadline closes. If video editing would be possible it would be used. Simple. Why else would you have it?
And it would lead to difficulties.
Very rarely these days one starts to work with final locked cut.
And then comes the new version. Video editors want to save time and don’t deliver you a new copy but tell you where to cut and so on. You disagree but in the end they save time, you loose time. Then, you make some small mistake making these edits. And resyncing audio to the cut of course repeats that error. Nobody notices this until finally you get the final version from editors. Suddenly your audio and the final cut don’t sync. Then starts searching where error is and who is to blame...

This is what eventually would happen. Ugh!

To me it sounds you are more of a composer type than SD guy. Do you do sound editing and sound design? I do. And while doing it I get very odd questions every now and then. One is: can you edit video? The only right answer is no. Video guys do that. I do sound to a video that I am delivered...
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:14 pm

ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 pm
I despise the "decades of experience" point as if it is the end all be all. Like, new sh!t is happening post-your-30-years-experience.
Here's the problem in a nutshell:
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 pm
Tumppi Järnefelt wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:30 pm
I have done sound for film and tv over 30 years.
And if something is possible you are asked to do that. So all Heiners points are very much valid.

And so are mine. What you call hypothetical I call experince and wisdom.
Umm no, professional video film people who know what they are doing don't compromise their work to get an audio person to do video work.
The only way what you appear to be saying above is literally correct is if in the past 30 years "professional video film people" somehow learned to NOT ask for new things that became possible in technology, AND Tumppi either is lying about it being true today OR it somehow just recently changed.

With 30 years experience in the industry it isn't only about technology, but about human beings. Three decades of working with professionals (hopefully, but not always) gets you insight in how people think and work, at least in that industry.

So you can claim all you want the professionals don't do this or that, but unless you have his experience I really doubt that you can know this better than he (or the rest of us) can.

Listen to what he's saying because it isn't just an old fart spouting nonsense.
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 pm
You guys need to look outside the box a little bit, such a boring traditionalist type conversation.

I'm here saying my work and future project and experiments would benefit from this capability, directly. I don't care about your hypotheticals. The video programs do not have musical workflow. Your hypothetical's to me just sound so boring and irrelevant. I'm here saying I need this. Plenty of people are doing mixed media visual sound art and working in new ways.
If this is boring to you then perhaps you should just post a simple feature request in the appropriate section. Or you can start your own blog or forum and moderate the discussion there to avoid "boring" disagreements.

Either way, I don't think the rest of us owe you our agreement. If we disagree then we are allowed to state that. If you don't want a discussion about it then see above.
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 pm
The answer should tell you all you need to know about the potential issues of extensive video features.
I keep saying "Doesn't need to have extensive video features just bare basic and you guys keep saying "ALL THE ISSUES THERE WOULD BE IF YOU HAD A DAW WITH EXTENSIVE VIDEO FEATURES" :lol:
You're missing the point. The point is that anything beyond just importing video and rendering/exporting to video is extended relative to that. And if it takes this long to get that functionality to happen along with every other small and big issue in the software then it is likely going to be problems with those new features you're looking for.

----------------

PS: So far we have suggestions for;

- Splice,
- Trim,
- Fade In/Out,
-Clip Cross fading,
-Clip Manager.
- Text overlay and positioning
- still picture imports
- not say that this couldn't potentially be good enough for basic YouTube video
- the video editor just saves to a software shared project folder with a .XML and then this can instantly be opened in Nuendo and all the same placements, crossfades, etc


Technically the above isn't basic I bet...
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by Heiner Einbier » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:27 am

ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 pm
... I'm not asking for full featured video editor. It wouldn't be possible to do professional video work even if these features were to be included.
Seems to me like you are. In your feature wishlist I see everything needed to make a fully featured NLE. The stuff you've omitted is what one would file under color correction and compositing. Why not go whole hog and ask for them as well, do go on... :roll:
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
Why would a customer who locked their own picture ask you to do, it doesn't make sense.
Mmh... maybe because it happens ALL THE TIME? If I had a dime for every producer who has come in here and asked me if I can perform "a quick video edit" as well, I'd be in pocket for my next beach holiday.
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
and would you even be working off a full resolution copy of the locked-picture? Anyways, regardless of this feature... You decide what work you want and don't want to do always...
Most producers can't tell an op1A from an mp4. And they don't need to. They have other skill sets that they need fully developed to do their job. Like whittling down production time by asking the audio guy if he can perform video edits. It's a valid question from their side, which should always be answered with "no" from ours. Which brings me to:
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
And if someone wanted you to do this? You would turn down the money?
Yes I would. Because aside from the fact that you are endangering a critical production workflow, it's also about RESPECT. The video editor has worked just as hard to get to where they are today as you have, and they have put just as much time, hard work and love into the project as you did. You don't just pipe in and say "You wanna second guess the editor's work without consulting him, Mr. Producer Man? Sure thing, let's see what we can slash about here..." Finishing a professional film production is always teamwork. And it's always about respect, which brings me to:
ResonantMind wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am
You guys need to listen to some Brian Eno or something, get a little outside the box.
Sigh. I was going to reply rather nastily to this. Luckily for me, my excellent co-forists Trumppi and Mattias beat me to it with beautiful examples of poised and level-headed replies to a thoroughly immature insult. So suffice it for me to say at this point: Bad form, sir.
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Re: The ONE thing that would sell me on Nuendo, is editing of Video itself

Post by GTBannah » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:14 pm

How about “rewiring” FCP X to Nuendo?
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