Integration with Cubase

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Brian Roland
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Brian Roland » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:34 am

I'd imagine that Dorico 'integration' for the Cubase/Nuendo (CuBendo) world will simply use the underlying 'engraving engine', but keep the composition entry style (typically real time playing while recording, or using the many MIDI editors provided) pretty much like it already is in existing Cubase Editors.

The Setup Mode of Dorico, where we designate "flows, players, etc." is already there in CuBendo. We call them 'tracks'. And each 'track' can have 'versions, and many lanes, and even independent score module layouts'. Each 'track' gets very powerful 'inspectors' where all kinds of MIDI/VST real time transformation/manipulation can take place.

The Engraving mode exists in CuBuendo, but might eventually be replaced with the Engraving mode similar or identical to the one we currently see in Dorico.

The Play mode already exists in CuBuendo. There exists the ability to work with 'track' instruments, or 'rack' based instruments, along with stacks of support for all things MIDI and VST. There are already some of the best 'key-editors' ever implemented in any DAW on the planet, as well as "Diamond Drum" and "event list" editors. Adding yet another Key-Editor identical to the one in Dorico shouldn't be a problem either (but it's currently a downgrade compared to the very robust Key-Editor already in CuBendo, which already has channel lanes for CC events, as well as 'individual note' containers' that allow storing VSTexpression [In the CuBendo Key Editor, which is similar to the Dorico Play view in many respects, we can already store CC events in VST3 containers so they move with individual notes, instead of living as a lone chunk of channel data that must be moved independently of the note-on/off events]).

The Write mode is quite different between Dorico and CuBendo, so the hooks would need to be in place for CuBendo to open this UI and keep its information in a format that is compatible with the Cubase Track (I might be wrong, but I suspect this is already the case, or very close to being so).

The base audio, timing, and groove engine is already there (and probably very similar if not identical to what Dorico is using)....CuBendo already has dozens of editors for dealing with MIDI and VST data. All that's needed is to replace the Score Engraving engine with Dorico's once it's mature and ready to go, and to tack on the routines that might make it possible to load a dorico score directly into CuBendo.

So, at the end of the day, all that needs to be done is to pull the engraving engine (once it's ready) into CuBuendo, and add the ability to load/save scores in the native dorico format (convert between Cubase projects and Dorico scores on the fly).

Having the ability to open the "Write Mode" from Dorico to work on a selection of "Tracks" in the project would be gravy :) The existing CuBendo Score module already works this way. First we select some tracks, then we open the Score Editor....so....just make it so one gets the option to manipulate these tracks with Dorico's Write mode instead. The terminology is different (CuBendo currently calls it Layouts, where Dorico calls it Flows), but it's ultimately the same mechanics.

In the setup phase, the terminology is different, but the purpose and foundations are close enough that it shouldn't be very difficult to convert a "Dorcio Flow" with it's "Players and Instruments" into the "Cubendo" layout of 'Tracks, Lanes, Versions, Layouts, and MIDI Channels (plus what ever new realms VST3 protocols add to the table)" with powerful Inspector elements and flexible routing options'.

In my mind, the only real holdup is giving the Dorico engine some time to evolve and mature; while gradually arranging the the elements necessary in both engines (I.E. Giving Cubase the ability to work with the scripting language in Dorico, and vice verse) to insure a happy marriage between the two apps.

My 'guess/prediction' is that someday we'll have an option to marry Dorico and Cubase if we have both licenses on our dongle. I'm looking forward to a day when we can import a Dorico Score directly into Cubase, and I predict that day might come relatively soon. Pulling a CuBendo project into a stand alone instance of Dorico on the other hand, might present a pretty large slate of challenges that will in the least require a good bit of user intervention in terms of what extensive CuBendo data can be 'thrown away', or otherwise 'interpreted' into a written score in the conversion process.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Hans Nel » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:05 pm

odlumb ...I agree quite a bit with you, I must admit. Not all created music is meant for a printed manuscript paper. I do the same and especially for film scoring where one does not make use of and actual orchestra/ensemble but rather the impressionistic, Esoterica etc., one would use a DAW to create such expressions.

Finale/Sibelius/Notion and Dorico, naturally, are mostly created for the printed page. I mean, can you imagine giving timpani a 2-octave scale printed on a manuscript or a Tuba playing 4 octaves higher just because those overtones make for an interesting effect as well as glissandos that stretch over 60 bars (I'm referring to the movie soundtrack "Gravity"...you should hear THAT sound track.).

Why would you want to print this kind of "unplayable" notes on paper. I LOVE the DAW's capabilities of stretching one's imagination, but at a DAW...it should stay....I think. Unless you have some brilliant orchestra who can perform such incredibly difficult expressions and a conductor who totally is in one mind with your creative attempt.

But, who am I in this BIG scheme of things, I do however envisage Steinberg trying to get Dorico to do it's main task...and that's printing music on paper. Music playable by musicians before moving into the esoterica. There are still too many functions missing that we require before I can ditch my other Notation Software. :-)

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by david-p » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:20 pm

cparmerlee wrote:There is a book that was rather famous in Silicon Valley during the 90s called "Accidental Empires". The thesis of the book was that some of the most successful companies actually missed the mark they were really shooting at, but ended up with something better, at least partly by accident. Their instincts put them in the right ballpark, but the real prize was different from what they thought it was.
Do you recall the example that was quoted in the book in support of this thesis?

David

PS: I just read in "The Guardian" an article by George Sauders(https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/ ... they-write), in which he writes that Einstein said: "No worthy problem is ever solved in the plane of its original conception". This is also my own experience.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:22 am

david-p wrote:
cparmerlee wrote:"...Einstein said: "No worthy problem is ever solved in the plane of its original conception". This is also my own experience.
This is most certainly true for me, and I don't think IQ has anything to do with it.

This may be a poor example, but putting more minds together like your team and my team, here in Cape Town, can give birth to this worthy problem...teamwork is perhaps the answer.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by fratveno » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:33 am

Hans Nel wrote:This may be a poor example, but putting more minds together like your team and my team, here in Cape Town, can give birth to this worthy problem...teamwork is perhaps the answer.
... and if those teams cooperated, rather than competed, the outcome would propably be overwhelming :)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by nikhilhogan » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:56 pm

Cost aside, if one just got Dorico AND Cubase, would that solve everything? (I get it, people want to save money on 1 app)

I'm probably going to buy Dorico, so if anyone at Steinberg is listening, selling a Dorico + Cubase discount bundle would be SWEET.. because I would probably get Cubase as well.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Brian Roland » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:31 pm

nikhilhogan wrote:Cost aside, if one just got Dorico AND Cubase, would that solve everything? (I get it, people want to save money on 1 app)

I'm probably going to buy Dorico, so if anyone at Steinberg is listening, selling a Dorico + Cubase discount bundle would be SWEET.. because I would probably get Cubase as well.
I think that would be fine for most people provided we could at least open scores generated by Dorico in his native format right into Cubase, and pick up where we left off (Plugins and all set up and ready to play).

Next phase would be the ability to grab tracks in Cubase and 'export them' to a Score that's all ready to be loaded into Dorico, with minimal manual interventions and corrections (Exporting a SMF MIDI file, or XML doesn't quite cut it, as we'd have to setup all our instruments and stuff again inside Dorico to get a duplicate real time translation and playback chain complete with any score mark up we might do in Cubase).

That would be a giant leap towards 'almost paradise'. Truly linking the two apps together, so we can access the Write and Engrave Modes of Dorico and apply them to our existing Cubase Tracks, all from inside Cubase would be the cat's meow :)

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by L3B » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:51 pm

This entire discussion reminds me of a saying I heard when I was very small: If we had some ice cream we could have pie and ice cream, if we had some pie.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by -steve- » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:15 pm

L3B wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:51 pm
This entire discussion reminds me of a saying I heard when I was very small: If we had some ice cream we could have pie and ice cream, if we had some pie.
apt and hilarious!
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:39 pm

Cubase is a sequencer and a DAW. Dorico is a (wonderful) score editor with some work still in progress. Obviously an integration is a big Hope, but also a big Win factor. And integration cannot be Music XML or MIDI tracks alone. The path Dorico to Cubase via MIDI (and perhaps back) may be the simpler and the most useful to start with imho...
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by jackpiazza » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:07 pm

Hello, I have heard that Dorico 2.0 is going to be released soon...I'm a Sibelius user and I really hope this is going to be a big step forward for this software.
When Dorico will be somehow integrated with cubase or it will give us at least all the tools we need to compose professional quality scores and good sounding audio files using vst libraries I'll give you all my money :lol:

..can't wait!

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:25 pm

Dorico 2.0 is not going to be released any time soon. A version 1.2 update is coming soon, and it is very ambitious and includes many new areas of functionality, but there are no changes regarding integration with Cubase.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by bobletteross » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:30 pm

Daniel,

Excited about the big 1.2 release in the next few weeks, but could you say that it is possible that we could get Cubase/Dorico integration sometime in 2018?

I am contemplating the limited time cross grade (from the now static Sonar) to Cubase.

Just wondering....

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Romantique Tp » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:37 pm

He said that Cubase integration is a long-term aim. You probably wont see this in Dorico 2. Their main market are likely not DAW users, so right now it's much more important to focus on Dorico's features.


The Score Editor in Cubase is kinda old fashioned compared to Dorico, but it's surprisingly fully featured and may be good enough for now while you wait for this to be implemented. Give the trial version a try.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Traubitz » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:06 pm

I would be helped if we even had something as simple as cut-and-paste between Dorico and Cubase. It's a speed thing. I can only dream of the day when Cubase and Dorico could stay in sync. (That is, changes to a score in Dorico get reflected in a Cubase mockup.)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Traubitz » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:23 pm

jackpiazza wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:07 pm
Hello, I have heard that Dorico 2.0 is going to be released soon...I'm a Sibelius user and I really hope this is going to be a big step forward for this software.
When Dorico will be somehow integrated with cubase or it will give us at least all the tools we need to compose professional quality scores and good sounding audio files using vst libraries I'll give you all my money :lol:

..can't wait!
I use Sibelius quite a bit as well. You can get pretty far in producing a decent sound just in Dorico's playback system and the Halion samples they provide. A bit further if you use additional libraries on Kontakt, for example. It depends on how much of your audio engineering/mixing you're willing to do. Dorico comes with about 30 effect processors (compressor, eq, limiter, reverb, etc.)

I personally take my scores as far as I feel like in Dorico and then use MusicXML to take the score over to Cubase and mock it up with some higher-end sample libraries. The workflow is pretty easy (or to me at least as easy as Sibelius) if you know Cubase. The upcoming 1.2 version (due before the end of the year) will fill out a lot of my notation concerns and since I've started templating my Orchestral setups (with a custom mix of sampled instruments and effects), I'm pretty happy with sound. It's not quite Noteperformer output, but it is at least satisfying as an ear-check on the score before mocking up the sound more fully.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by jackpiazza » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Traubitz wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:23 pm
jackpiazza wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:07 pm
Hello, I have heard that Dorico 2.0 is going to be released soon...I'm a Sibelius user and I really hope this is going to be a big step forward for this software.
When Dorico will be somehow integrated with cubase or it will give us at least all the tools we need to compose professional quality scores and good sounding audio files using vst libraries I'll give you all my money :lol:

..can't wait!
I use Sibelius quite a bit as well. You can get pretty far in producing a decent sound just in Dorico's playback system and the Halion samples they provide. A bit further if you use additional libraries on Kontakt, for example. It depends on how much of your audio engineering/mixing you're willing to do. Dorico comes with about 30 effect processors (compressor, eq, limiter, reverb, etc.)

I personally take my scores as far as I feel like in Dorico and then use MusicXML to take the score over to Cubase and mock it up with some higher-end sample libraries. The workflow is pretty easy (or to me at least as easy as Sibelius) if you know Cubase. The upcoming 1.2 version (due before the end of the year) will fill out a lot of my notation concerns and since I've started templating my Orchestral setups (with a custom mix of sampled instruments and effects), I'm pretty happy with sound. It's not quite Noteperformer output, but it is at least satisfying as an ear-check on the score before mocking up the sound more fully.
I actualy work like that.
Sibelius--> midi export--> cubase-->Kontakt-->etc
But you know, while you are arranging or even composing on a notation software (and for me is the best way to do it) what you hear may affect your writing in a bad way...so being able to write in a notation software and use at the same time vsts and sound libraries would be priceless

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Derrek » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:10 am

Gee, I wonder how Haydn and Beethoven ever managed.
Not that I don't appreciate good samples.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:55 am

david-p wrote:
Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:20 pm
cparmerlee wrote:There is a book that was rather famous in Silicon Valley during the 90s called "Accidental Empires". The thesis of the book was that some of the most successful companies actually missed the mark they were really shooting at, but ended up with something better, at least partly by accident. Their instincts put them in the right ballpark, but the real prize was different from what they thought it was.
Do you recall the example that was quoted in the book in support of this thesis?
Sorry, I have been away from this thread for awhile. The book has many examples -- that's the theme throughout the whole book. One of the main ones was early Microsoft. I am sure Bill Gates would readily acknowledge much of their success was being in the right place at the tight time, and it was mostly accidental that IBM didn't recognize the importance of the operating system with their nascent "IBM PC" project.

But back on the main thread, I am now a SONAR exile. As far as my DAW activities, I am moving on to BOTH StudioOne and Cubase, as each has its strengths. So I am more interested than ever in integration between Dorico and Cubase. (Presonus has already taken significant steps integrating StudioOne with Notion, although much more is needed to make this really useful.)

That gets me to another topic area. Notation programs really need to be "harmonically aware". It is just not sufficient to add the ability to display some chord symbols and call it a day. If the composer has gone to the trouble of entering chord information, then the least the notation program can do is help the composer lay in parts that are consistent with those harmonies.

Some of my earlier discussion on this subject seemed to have been met with the Internet equivalent of blank stares, as in "How could such a thing be possible?" or "Why would anybody want to do that?". Well, it turns out that Cubase does EXACTLY that. If you enter chords in Cubase, you have the option to request that your MIDI entries (and loops) "follow" the chords. This is enormously powerful and can result in very high productivity. The same sort of thing belongs in the notation program for the part of the world that is more comfortable composing in notation than MIDI. Here are some videos that explain how this works in Cubase.

This one shows the basic setup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaAqyrfju2M

This shows a few simple example of letting the existing content "follow" the chords.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_1pxYpRiQw
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Judoludo » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:24 pm

hi there. news on integration? 2 years have passed.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by chikitin » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:16 am

I am waiting for that to buy it!
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by pianoleo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:34 am

There’s still no integration with Cubase, except that you can copy and paste note data directly from Cubase into Dorico (as MIDI). There are plenty of native features still to implement within Dorico, and the development team certainly haven’t mentioned Cubase integration as being on the v2 roadmap.

You’ll need to wait until (at least) v3, which is (at least) six months away.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by vmudrak » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:19 am

I'm also one of those disappointed by the horrid Cubase score editor (that jpg was suppose to impress anyone?), wishing Dorico would able to be incorporated into Cubase as an optional add-on, and vice-versa. To me it makes absolutely no sense have two separate softwares for the music making. There is absolutely no reason for not having it under one umbrella. I am not interested to have arguments why is it not possible in 2019 besides that Steinberg has a wrong marketing approach. Reinventing the wheel with Dorico as a standalone software when having solid Sibelius and Finale is questionable.... That's my 99Cents. Peace out.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Derrek » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:33 am

In other words, you want to have the final word. I'm afraid that is not what a discussion board is all about. You are welcome to your thoughts, and indeed they may guide the Development Team in the future; but you have to expect others will respond.

(If you don't like the Cubase score editor, perhaps that is something best taken up on the Cubase Forum.)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Scab Pickens » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:11 am

vmudrak wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:19 am
I'm also one of those disappointed by the horrid Cubase score editor (that jpg was suppose to impress anyone?), wishing Dorico would able to be incorporated into Cubase as an optional add-on, and vice-versa. To me it makes absolutely no sense have two separate softwares for the music making. There is absolutely no reason for not having it under one umbrella. I am not interested to have arguments why is it not possible in 2019 besides that Steinberg has a wrong marketing approach. Reinventing the wheel with Dorico as a standalone software when having solid Sibelius and Finale is questionable.... That's my 99Cents. Peace out.
I don't think you understand how many Cubase users there are who don't even realize there is a score editor, and that many more have never read a musical "note". Two different worlds ...

So, in my mind, there is an absolute reason for not having it "under one umbrella".
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