Parenthesised trill notes.

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Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:38 am

Daniel, how will Dorico deal with the parenthesised trill notes? Will it be an easy way to input them or it will be a tedious workaround as it is with Sibelius or Finale? Djuro
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Last edited by OCTO on Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:42 am

Dorico doesn't have any support for these yet (you can't make stemless notes, or indeed parenthesised notes). When we implement them, we plan to do so in a way that will hopefully not require any tedious workarounds.

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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by steinberg0101 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:33 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:Dorico doesn't have any support for these yet (you can't make stemless notes, or indeed parenthesised notes). When we implement them, we plan to do so in a way that will hopefully not require any tedious workarounds.
Is there any way to enther these anyway? Including the transposing ability? No need for the playback.

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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:34 am

I'm afraid not yet, because, as I say, we have neither parenthesised noteheads nor stemless notes. The only way to do it for now would be to use text objects, which is definitely not ideal.

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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by high5ths » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:56 pm

Could you elaborate on how you might fake a parenthesized trill note with text, even though I realize it's kind of crazy? I tried creating a text object using Bravura, but it doesn't seem to use the font for display.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:14 am

You'd have to use Bravura Text rather than Bravura, and you'd need to be able to input Unicode code points; I wrote up some details about how to type arbitrary Unicode code points in the Bravura Text documentaton.

And you'd then have to drag the text items around in Engrave mode, as you can't move them in Write mode, and they don't yet avoid collisions with things, which might in this specific case actually be an advantage.

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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:45 pm

Has this feature been implemented in Dorico?
It is the very basic notation. The trill notes should be of any size, of any stem (even invisible), any number.
They must include: spacing ability and transposition ability.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:05 am

Unfortunately auxiliary notes for trills have not yet been implemented in Dorico, but we do plan to implement them in future.

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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by Stephen Taylor » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:12 pm

But it is worth noting that auxiliary *accidentals* are included for trills and mordents. In the Properties panel at the bottom of the screen, click on the trill or mordent and increase the "Interval" setting. This is extremely convenient, and as far as I know not implemented in Sibelius or Finale.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by Ed-222 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:48 pm

I have the same problem. As Daniel recommanded it in an other topic about trills, I did specify notes with text using Shift+X (D#, B...) and then moved it under the trill symbol in the Engrave mode.
Obviously we can do the job using the text workaround. But it definitely could be very cool to be able to type directly the note in an alternative text window in the properties panel. ;)
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:05 pm

Ed-222 wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:48 pm
As Daniel recommanded it in an other topic about trills, I did specify notes with text using Shift+X (D#, B...) and then moved it under the trill symbol in the Engrave mode.
I think this is not the way. As a professional musician, I CAN study that score and perform it, but I have never seen it as a standard way. All notes should be entered as notes not as texts (except chords in jazz, or generalbaß).
So, I recommend not to do that.
Stephen Taylor wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:12 pm
But it is worth noting that auxiliary *accidentals* are included for trills and mordents. In the Properties panel at the bottom of the screen, click on the trill or mordent and increase the "Interval" setting. This is extremely convenient, and as far as I know not implemented in Sibelius or Finale.
It is found in both programs many years back.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:07 pm

Parenthesised trill notes are the standard in western notation, and it is pity that none of the currently available software can project them as such, without workarounds.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by snakeeyes021 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:07 pm

Ed-222, I think when Daniel recommended using text, he simply meant using the text tool (shift+x). With that approach, you can achieve the original request. You just need to copy and paste a few characters from Bravura into the text box and then mess with the font size and baseline shift until it's all to your liking. Also, make sure to set the character style to music text.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:06 pm

snakeeyes021 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:07 pm
Ed-222, I think when Daniel recommended using text, he simply meant using the text tool (shift+x). With that approach, you can achieve the original request. You just need to copy and paste a few characters from Bravura into the text box and then mess with the font size and baseline shift until it's all to your liking. Also, make sure to set the character style to music text.
How to do that with the ledger lines?
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by LSalgueiro » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:13 pm

OCTO wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:06 pm
snakeeyes021 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:07 pm
Ed-222, I think when Daniel recommended using text, he simply meant using the text tool (shift+x). With that approach, you can achieve the original request. You just need to copy and paste a few characters from Bravura into the text box and then mess with the font size and baseline shift until it's all to your liking. Also, make sure to set the character style to music text.
How to do that with the ledger lines?
Use another voice, displace them horizontally, scale them.

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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by steveparker » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:51 pm

If it helps, you can create stemless notes in Engrave mode by clicking the stem and reducing it into notehead. This works well for me at the moment.

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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by snakeeyes021 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:01 am

For ledger lines, an underscore works... It's a bit of a hassle, so hopefully you won't need that many, but it works, and these things do copy and paste, so if you have the same one several times, that's no problem.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by snakeeyes021 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:08 am

Alternatively, steveparker's idea works rather well, especially if you use grace notes, which won't throw anything off rhythmically, and you don't have to fiddle with the note heads and especially not the ledger lines, just the parentheses.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:57 pm

snakeeyes021 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:08 am
Alternatively, steveparker's idea works rather well, especially if you use grace notes, which won't throw anything off rhythmically, and you don't have to fiddle with the note heads and especially not the ledger lines, just the parentheses.
Well done.
If I may ask you another favor. I don't own Dorico so I cannot check it in vivo. If you put a small value notes in the stave below, how does it affect the upper parenthesised notes? Do they stay firm? Or they are misplaced?
Appreciate your test.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by snakeeyes021 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:59 pm

It depends on which method you use to put in the noteheads.

My preferred method is putting all characters in as text. That way, everything stays locked relative to all the other characters, and you can attach it rhythmically to the beginning of the whole note and then just move it over in engraving mode. When you add small note values in other staves, the text block remains where it's supposed to.

If you use grace notes for the noteheads, those do move (see attached pics). Luckily, in my tests, the parentheses moved along with them, which I wasn't expecting, so that's nice, but it might depend on where you've attached them rhythmically. One thing to note about this method is that the trill has to be made too long; otherwise, it won't stretch past the grace notes. This means that when you add small note values to other staves, it might become obvious that you've stretched the trill too long (though this is adjusted easily enough in engrave mode).

If you use LSalgueiro's method of putting the noteheads in in another voice, scaling them, and displacing them, unfortunately, at least in my test, adding additional notes in the lower staff does displace the small notes and also displaces the parentheses relative to those small notes. So unless you put this all in after everything else is already done, changing the music will likely require you to redo all the spacing.

So... yes, if you put everything in as text, things stay where they're supposed to, the whole set is copy-and-paste-able, and you don't have to cheat the trill length at all. If you need ledger lines, it takes an extra few minutes to get those in, but I think the result is worth it.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:59 pm

Thank you, I appreciate.

In Finale, there is an option to disallow spacing for a certain layer/voice.
Is that possible in Dorico?

In that case, the spacing of the secondary layer (where trill notes are positioned, let us say voice4) doesn't affect spacing, nor the spacing is calculated from it. The trill notes are entered as regular notes, with removed stem, scaled down and moved to the right. With a shortcut, that can be achieved with a keystroke.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by LSalgueiro » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:27 pm

It shouldn't. I was a bit elliptical, I admit, but I meant displacing their individual voice horizontal offset and not the whole column. They would be in the same column as the principal note and, as such, their distance should pretty much be consistent. In my screenshot, they seem somewhat aligned with the second part of the beat only because I'm allowing space for the parenthesis, but the notes are very much in position 1.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by snakeeyes021 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 pm

Hmm... I might indeed need to retract my words.

Now, I'm almost certain I did exactly as you describe, but there was still an ever so slight amount of space change when adding additional notes in the other staff. The bigger issue though was that the parentheses didn't move to the same position relative to the noteheads. I suppose that might turn out different for people depending on where they attach the shift-x text to. I'm not near a computer to fiddle around with it and test things out though.

Nonetheless, if it works it works :D
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by OCTO » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:51 pm

LSalgueiro wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:27 pm
but the notes are very much in position 1.
Good, thank you.
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Re: Parenthesised trill notes.

Post by mati » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:52 pm

Hi,

is there a plan to add this functionality (or at least only parenthesised notes) in any incremental update 2.x or will the wait be longer?

Thanks

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