Export longer than film

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Max Stirner
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Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:35 pm

Hello,

can someone explain the following. I am working on a feature film. The mp4 of the film is exactly 01:28:44:10 long at a frame rate of 23.98fps. Everything is at 48kHz of course. I have exported a stereo downmix of this film and send it to the editor. He complained that the wav file is a bit longer than the film and therefore out of sync. And indeed the length of the stereo wav export is 01:28:49.741 (741 being ms). However, when I import this stereo export into my Nuendo session, it syncs up exactly with the length of the film. Where do the extra 5+s come from and go respectively?

Best wishes,

Max
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by mufi » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:24 am

Does the editor use FCP 7.x ?
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Oswald Schwander » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:32 am

Hi Max


Where do you read out this numbers? I take it that on Nuendo tracks picture and mix have same lengh. Which one?
Where do you read the other lengh?

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Fredo » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:54 am

Samplerate mis-match.
If the movie has BITC (which it should*always* have), then there can be no discussion about file length.
Movies says it is xxx-long, and audio is also xxx-length.
If it doesn't line up at someone elses place, then it is not your problem. (So to speak)

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:25 pm

ok thank you for your replies. The Movie has BITC. And within Nuendo everything syncs up. So even if I re import the stereo export, it syncs up. What I do not quite understand is, in Nuendo the film and the stereo export is exactly 01:28:44:10 long. But if I am opening the stereo export with a different program, like say snapper or quicktime outside of Nuendo it says the length is 01:28:49.741. Where do these extra 5+s come from? And why do they disappear again when I import it into Nuendo? Seconds should be seconds, whether I divide them into frames or ms.

Thanks!

Max
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Oswald Schwander » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:50 pm

This 5 sec sort of reminds me of 23.98 fps versus 24 fps on a lengh of 90 min. Is Nuendo giving it to you in 23.98fps while other systems are not able to give 23.98 and give it in 24 frame?

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:13 pm

I see, that is a good point. I just notice that the mp4 file of the film played in Quicktime is also 5s longer. So maybe Quicktime is playing it in 24fps. But why is the stereo wav export on its own, outside of Nuendo, 5s longer and then 5s shorter within Nuendo? Wav is based on sample rate not frames?

Best wishes,

Max
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MattiasNYC
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:19 pm

I agree that it's probably a frame rate issue:

Dividing the longer file in seconds (incorrectly rounded) by the shorter; 5329/5324=1.0009
Dividing 24/23.98=1.0008

So that's a pretty close value, roughly rounded, and not accounting for just how these frames are allocated specifically (because I just don't know). But it's certainly closer than 48/44.1=1.088.
Max Stirner wrote:why is the stereo wav export on its own, outside of Nuendo, 5s longer
If you are in Nuendo and select import audio and navigate to the exported file and select it (but don't import it), does it give you the longer duration or the shorter? Just trying to figure out if there could be a problem with how the other programs measure the file rather than Nuendo....

And lastly, if you pick a different non-compressed file format, does the length still vary?
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Oswald Schwander » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:59 pm

But why is the stereo wav export on its own, outside of Nuendo, 5s longer and then 5s shorter within Nuendo?
I can not explain that, as Frame Rate is not even part of BWav Metadata.....A far as i know Quick Time Player can not even know that it is generated in a 23,98 session.

Who exactly outside Nuendo is telling you that the file is longer? The audio file, independent of picture?

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:29 pm

Hi Mattias,

If I go to import and click on the file, it says that the file is 01:28:49, so again 5s longer. But if I then go and import it into Nuendo, and I just tried it with a completely fresh session, it is again 5s less. I don't understand this. So this is Nuendo itself giving me a different length when importing than when it is in the session.

Best wishes,

Max
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Fredo » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:41 pm

Exported at the wrong samplerate?
System clock not correct?
Session Pulled by mistake?


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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:19 pm

+1 to Fredo's questions.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:02 am

- I have exported it at 48 kHz, same as the session. I have also exported it now more than once, with the same result.

- System clock? I am not syncing it with any other devises if that is what you mean.

- session is not pulled, I checked that first. But if it was, wouldn't that mean that the file after I re import it would be longer?

I actually don't think that this is the issue with the editor though. He now told me it was only a few frames longer in his session. So maybe that is a problem on his end. It looks like that Mac os is interpreting the length differently from Nuendo. The only thing contradicting that narrative is that Nuendo also showed the file to be longer during import. But maybe it takes the length from Mac OS somehow?

Best wishes,

Max
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:17 am

And you've tried different file formats? I mean, could it be that somehow the header gets messed up by a different application?
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:27 am

I have tried MP3 and Wave, both with the same result. And the film file that I got from the editor also is 5s longer outside of Nuendo. And it is also 5s longer as it should be according to the editor. So Nuendo gives me the length that should be correct.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Fredo » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:08 pm

There are plenty of "area's" in Nuendo (and other applications) where you can check the length & framerate of the video. What does the Original video say in the Pool? according BITC? In QT? In G-spot or another application.
What does*your* audio shows in these same area's?
Import audio from video file. What is the information of that audio file?

If there is a difference between your exports and the stuff you received from the editor, then something is wrong with your system/setup. This really sounds like you are clocked to the wrong samplerate. Which is possible since you are not using a House/Sync clock. So gather all the information you can, and compare the stuff you have been receiving with the stuff that you have send back.

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:28 pm

The Pool tells me that all these files, including the original video, which is obviously not my export, are 5s longer than they should be. But the timeline of Nuendo says something different.

How can I be clocked to the wrong sample rate? There seems to be two ways I can set a sample rate. I can set it on my fireface, which is set to 48kHz, and in the project setup in Nuendo, also set at 48kHz. And if I was clocked to the wrong sample rate, why does it only matter in this project? I just exported and delivered a set of audiofiles for another feature film. They all had the correct length, were synced correctly and passed the QC.

It looks to me like all these files have the same length. The length is just read differently by different programs and even differently by Nuendo, depending on whether I look it up in the pool or in the timeline. How is that possible? The most consistent reading is the 5s longer version. Even the original film file from the editor is read as 5s longer as it should be. The only thing that is reading it at the length that the editor tells me it should be, is the timeline in Nuendo.

Best wishes,

Max
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:47 pm

Can you maybe post up the files for us to double check? Like one file which is correct which is then imported into Nuendo, and then one that has been exported and is then incorrect.... So we can make sure if it's Nuendo or your system or the files....
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:12 pm

Ok, here you can download the left surround channel of the film.

https://mab.to/gvWyVs6PAYN

MacOS tells me that it is 01:28:49:741 Long. If I import the file into a Nuendo session with 48kHz and 23.98fps it is 01:28:44:10 long. So is there anything wrong with this file? Would be good to know what you think the real length is.

Thanks,

Max
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Ok, I've tested a few things now:

1: In Nuendo 7.1 the import dialog tells me it is "1:28:49". I imported the file and placed it exactly at 01:00:00:00, and the end of the file is 02:28:44:09.79. Length is thus exactly 1 hr shorter in Nuendo.

Windows Media Player ends at 1:28:49, same in
VLC media player ends at 1:28:49.

I'm seeing exactly what you're seeing...

2: I opened up a TV post I did that read 53:11 in VLC, and it reads 53:11 in Nuendo's import audio dialog box, yet if I place it at 1hr it ends up finishing at 01:53:08:01. This was a file that was delivered to the production company so I opened up that project again and it does indeed read 01:53:08:01.

3: Last thing I tried was to re-export using "insert broadcast wave chunk" which made no difference.

So I don't really know what's going on here.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:04 pm

So at this point the only thing that would make sense to me is that "non-pro" applications don't read information correctly, but that Nuendo does. In addition to that then there would be a problem on the editor's end. I don't think Mufi's question was answered, and I do recall there was a problem on Final Cut in some of the versions where if set up a certain way it would simply re-interpret the audio as being something it was not, compensate for that, and pull everything out of sync.

That's really the only thing that makes sense at this point. It'd be a huge coincidence if both you and I are the anomaly as far as reading timecode from 23.98 in non-pro apps goes, meaning that it only differs for us - AND that I then have zero problems but you do. It just seems like most people would see this difference in addition to not having this issue which kind'a leaves the editor as the last unexamined part of the chain.....
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:48 pm

Thanks very much for testing this Mattias! The weird thing is that the difference is exactly the difference between 23.98fps and 24fps. I have tried to import the audio into a 24fps project and there it reads 01:28:49:17. So the length of the wav file is interpreted differently according to which frame rate the project has. There must be some way in which the wav file stores the fps information. Otherwise this does not make sense. Or there is some kind of other metadata in the wav file. Otherwise seconds should be seconds.

Best wishes,

Max
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Fredo » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:21 pm

Audio framerate shouldn't matter for any application.
A file of one hour is one hour, regardless if it is devided into 24 frames, 25 frames, seconds or bars & beats.

My first reaction would be that upon import, Nuendo has "forced" 23.98fps into 24, making the whole thing longer.
But you say that the BITC is matching the Nuendo timeline, so that can't be it.
So, if it isn't Nuendo, then ...
A quick "FCP 23.98 bug" -google gave me this:

http://duc.avid.com/archive/index.php/t-212057.html

Fredo

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:45 pm

I know the bug in FCP 7. This film was edited in FCP X of all programs, which I understand is the successor of imovie.

But a bug In FCPX would only explain the out of sync in FCP. Or it couls explain a faulty film file export. The file that I have send however is an export out of Nuendo. And Nuendo interprets the length of this file differently, whether the project is set at 23.98fps or 24fps. How is that possible? Because as you said, in audio, it is all about sample rates. Frame rates should not matter.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:07 pm

But hold on a second: Is it not still possible that the problem lies elsewhere? Nuendo correctly interprets this because otherwise we'd surely have seen the issue many places. Perhaps simple consumer apps just "round up" to 24 frames for whatever reason and then displays the wrong duration.

So again the issue would be if FCP or the editor messes it up. I would recommend reading through that entire thread and try the workarounds, despite it referring to FCP7 originally and being a few years old. Re-stamping the file or changing format or whatever.....
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