Dynamic plugin delay compensation

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TuckerMix
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Dynamic plugin delay compensation

Post by TuckerMix » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:08 pm

Cubase Nuendo do not yet support dynamic plugin delay compensation like Protools and Reaper do.

This complicates the use of plugins that host other plugins. Currently PDC is only compensated on plugin power on.

If steinberg supported more inserts and complex plugin routing (multi parallel routing without the need for many mixer channels) plugins like bluecat patchworks would not be needed. As it stands they are needed and the lack of dynamic PDC is a hindrance to their use.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product ... patchworks

Blue cat audio says this about their Patchworks plugin.

"Latency compensation works in cubase (as well as inside our plug-ins: parallel chains are compensated), but you may have to disable/enable the plug-in to have cubase take changes into account (it is not able to dynamically detect latency changes when you insert a new plug-in inside ours).

Unfortunately Steinberg's internal plug-ins such as hardware insertes cannot be hosted (it's not actually a plug-in that can be used by third parties). But there are probably other VST solutions to to this... If not we may just build one :-).

Yes, the activate/deactivate thing in Cubase is not convenient. Fortunately, there are other hosts out there that can handle dynamic latency without any problem (Pro Tools or Reaper for example, to name a few). Also, you have to do this only when inserting a new plug-in that changes latency. Once it's in there, it will just work.

VST MIDI output is not yet supported, so an arpeggiator in the chain will not work for now."

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Fredo
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Re: Dynamic plugin delay compensation

Post by Fredo » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:41 am

TuckerMix wrote:If steinberg supported [..] complex plugin routing (multi parallel routing without the need for many mixer channels) ....
What is wrong with the Direct Routing as it is now?
Currently you can send any channel to 8 different/parallel sources, and you can automate the routing.
and the lack of dynamic PDC is a hindrance to their use.
Have re-read that a few times, but I don't seem to understand. Any plugin that reports it's latency to the host (which should be any properly build VST plugin) will be delay compensated. So simple. If they mean that the host should compensate for any change in the latency (during operation) of that plugin, then indeed that doesn't happen.

Each DAW has a different way of compenating for latency, and all have their pro's and con's. In Cubase/Nuendo, the plugins are "scanned" upon loading a project. (See in the plugin information window). So when you drop them in a project, their latency is automatically compensated for. The advantage of the plugin pre-scan is that all plugins are available instantly, without having to wait for the loading of the plugin, and the re-calcutaion of the host latency.

As I saw in the Gearsluts post ...Performing a flip fase test to see if they cancel out is an incorrect test in this case.
Some plugins (like some compressors) simply don't have a fixed latency, but they vary during operation. Just like plugins that use LFO modulation or any other kind of dynamic process, will never cancel out. The workaround is mostly to have the plugin report a max. latency to the host, so the plugin can operate within that "range". There are pro's and con's to that, so there are many different flavors out there. The 1176 for example has a variable latency, the more you push the unit, the more latency it produces. So it will drift during operation. **Just like the original hardware 1176**



Best regards
Fredo

TuckerMix
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Re: Dynamic plugin delay compensation

Post by TuckerMix » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:11 am

The purpose of the Patchworks plugin is to host other vst plugins as well as offer series and parallel routing of inserts. When the patchwork plugin is instantiated the PDC is reported to cubendo. But then adding a plugin inside patchworks changes patchworks latency but this is not reported to the daw because cubendo only gets the latency amount on instantiation. Patchworks insert power button must be toggled to update the PDC.

1) cubendo only offers 6 pre fader inserts while Protools offers 10, logic unlimited, etc
2) in cubendo, as in most daws, parallel effects processing requires many addition daw channels, patchworks offers parallel processing in a plugin insert, reducing project assets (daw channels)
3) because cubendo vst sdk does not support dynamic plugin delay compensation (cubendo does not update patchworks PDC value once a plugin is inserted into it) use of patchwork plugin is hindered by user having to constantly toggle patchworks insert power to update cubendo with the new PDC value.

Get it?

Arne Scheffler
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Re: Dynamic plugin delay compensation

Post by Arne Scheffler » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:00 pm

If the plug-in is correctly using the VST SDK, Nuendo should compensate for any latency changes when the transport is not playing. PDC changes while the transport is playing is indeed not supported by Nuendo, but should be working after stopping and starting the transport.

neilwilkes
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Re: Dynamic plugin delay compensation

Post by neilwilkes » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:56 am

Arne Scheffler wrote:If the plug-in is correctly using the VST SDK, Nuendo should compensate for any latency changes when the transport is not playing. PDC changes while the transport is playing is indeed not supported by Nuendo, but should be working after stopping and starting the transport.

Absolutely.
It's not really fair to expect PDC to kick in properly if a plugin is added during play, and if the system was not working (it is, I can assure you) then tools like Waves Studio Rack would not be compensated properly (which it definitely is).
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