dropouts on rendered wav

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Daved
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Daved »

Yeah, this is how I resolved it before 7.1... IOW it's not fixed. :cry:

I guess the good news is you can HEAR the fails as they happen. If it were any step other than final render, you could re-start and stitch the 2 takes together in file editor or a new montage. But that's pretty bush league, and non-confidence inspiring in a mastering daw.

gotta get real time renders fixed... Logic can do this, ProTools ALWAYS does this, and most competing mastering daws too.

-d-
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by PG »

Well, I reviewed and optimized the code, and made many tests... no problem here. But maybe that's not enough, if some of you still have problems.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Sonik »

Daved wrote:Yeah, this is how I resolved it before 7.1... IOW it's not fixed. :cry:

I guess the good news is you can HEAR the fails as they happen. If it were any step other than final render, you could re-start and stitch the 2 takes together in file editor or a new montage. But that's pretty bush league, and non-confidence inspiring in a mastering daw.

gotta get real time renders fixed... Logic can do this, ProTools ALWAYS does this, and most competing mastering daws too.

-d-
What plugs are you using?
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Daved »

When looping I'm using MOSTLY outboard, no plugs to speak of. But I frequently have PSP Xenon as a final limiter in WL7 as a plug. Yes, I know... PSP hates WL7, and it's all PSPs fault. ;)

Seriously though, as noted here I can playback and capture externally with that plugin applied, only Renders (automated playback and record of looped material) don't work. I use a Metric Halo ULN8, so I can capture anything I can hear in MIO Console, so that gets things done.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by nfaller »

same here,still the same problem with dropouts, the latest update didn´t change anything about that! :(
wl7 is just unusable for serious mastering work with external gear. PLEASE fix this ASAP!!!

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by splnlss »

I get drop outs even when i'm just using the outboard plugin. It's really problematic since some of them are small enough to miss while proofing only to have the client find it later. This is inevitably going to lead to a production master getting duplicated with a glitch!!!!! terrifying!
For the record, I'm on Wavelab 7.1, using Lynx Aurora, UAD-2 and BX plugins. But i mostly only use outboard gear. I've talked extensively with lynx and they are absolutely convinced its a software issue. (Also 7.1 crashes when there is a sample rate change.)

What could i do to help trouble shoot this because it's really a show stoping bug? Thanks!

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by splnlss »

Should the buffer number in Audio Streaming -> options, be a multiple of the audio device buffer?
I've tried ever possible combination of the two without any luck. thanks.

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Highenmastering.com »

Same problem here with Wavelab 7.1, Windows 7, RME FF800 and Apogee PSX Converter.

I am teaching Wavelab in a school of music production and it is really embarrassing creating all these dropouts in front of my students.

I will not longer teach a mastering software that is not even able to render a hardware insert properly!

So any progress on that issue PG?

Kind Regards from Germany

PS: Now i even get white noise in my rendered tracks. And i have a fast system too. (Quad-Core)

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by PG »

Yes, I am working on that right now. I have indeed found a weakness in the current implementation, where the situation you describe can happen when small hardware "fluctuations" are met, eg. slightly more time is suddently needed to read or write the file (for whatever system reason). I am rewriting the function to be much more "elastic", more reliable. The fix will be included in the next version.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by splnlss »

Thats great news. Thanks PG. any chance it could be released as a patch so there's not a 4 month wait time? Best, jc

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by PG »

I will talk with Steinberg about this.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Highenmastering.com »

@PG! Amen, thank you! :)

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by splnlss »

I second that! THanks a ton! -jc

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Sonik
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Sonik »

I didn't found any dropout with plugs yet.

Is this a problem with external plug-in?
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by splnlss »

yes, external gear plugin only.

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by toneproper »

Yes, hurry up with that patch. Its creating more work and hassle for us mastering studios.
I have found however that the 7.1 is better, meaning, I get less dropouts...one is too many though. I'm still super edgy about it which isn't a good feeling.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by planetgroove »

PG wrote:The fix will be included in the next version.
Are you kidding? That should be a superfast, nearly sameday patch.
Otherwise it would be just a big shame for Steinberg, to let professional users wait "for the next version" - unless the "next version" is released only a few days later ...

So hurry up Steinberg and deliver what we have ALREADY paid for! NOW!!
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by PG »

We shall deliver a WaveLab 7.11 in june, with this fix and others. The exact date can't be given now, because there are several parallel ongoing projects at Steinberg.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by planetgroove »

PG wrote:We shall deliver a WaveLab 7.11 in june, with this fix and others. The exact date can't be given now, because there are several parallel ongoing projects at Steinberg.
Thanks for a quick reply.

My answer to this:
Steinberg should prioritize properly - not focusing too strong on new products/features for making money fast, but on excellent customer service. Especially regarding products, that are used by demanding professionals who have to rely 100% on their software. Finally it's only a matter of quantity vs. quality. I really hope, the latter one is what counts most for Steinberg. As it surely does for engineers all around the world.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Arjan P »

planetgroove wrote:Finally it's only a matter of quantity vs. quality. I really hope, the latter one is what counts most for Steinberg. As it surely does for engineers all around the world.
Yes, and also the number of people having this problem are a certain quantity. Not saying this problem got the right priority (apparently not for you), but you make it sound like no-one is able to use WL up till now. I can, and many more users can.

Luck, Arjan
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by planetgroove »

If you had seriously read the complete thread, you would have seen my posting from 16 Feb 2011, 12:41.
When you look at the date, THAT alone should lead Steinberg to be ashamed of the poor aftersales customer service.

Wavelabs original function is to be a mastering-software. And the External Gear-feature is one (if not THE) unique feature of Wavelab. Many companies/engineers bought the software only for this function (including me), because nearly everything else can be done with other products also. Not so the comfortable external gear-thing. Sure: you can workaround with two instances (play/record), different programs (here Sony CD Architect, Nuendo and more) or simply two computers for the same purpose. But that leaves THE unique feature, which makes working with analogue external gear comfortable and time-saving, useless.

So don't tell me anything else. It is simply ridiculous that this feature does not work for many engineers since the new version of Wavelab, that has been paid since. Or do you accept giving it back because it does not work 100% as advertised, like it is common practice in ALL other economical branches, but the software-industry? I really don't need Wavelab explicitly - except for the External Gear-feature.

BTW: Did you take into account that many (amateur and semiprofessional) engineers or musicians, who use WL, did/do not even hear the dropouts, since they are sometimes more and sometimes less severe, and in the latter case really a good ear is needed to detect them? Read some posts before, where exactly this was a problem, when an engineer gave his result to a customer who then again gave him feedback about faulty audio with dropouts.

I stand by it: This needs to be fixed. NOW!
Because correct audio output is the CORE-feature of ANY audio editor. NO discussion.
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Johnny B Richman »

Chill out
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by Arjan P »

planetgroove wrote:NO discussion.
You know what: you - and you only - are totally 100% right.

Luck, Arjan
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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by pwhodges »

planetgroove wrote:It is simply ridiculous that this feature does not work for many engineers since the new version of Wavelab,
Yes, there's a bug; no it doesn't show the same for everyone because the severity varies with the system; yes, PG has had one go at fixing it which improved it but was not sufficient; yes, he is going to deliver a more fundamental fix soon; yes, the patched program will go through regression testing before release, because you really, really don't want something else to break in the hurry, right?

If you have ever worked with software you would know that this is a reasonable sequence, in a reasonable timescale - shouting about how bad it is doesn't make fixing faults any easier, in this field, the same as any other.

Paul

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Re: dropouts on rendered wav

Post by planetgroove »

Johnny B Richman wrote:Chill out
To pick that up: I'm really a little chilled about Steinbergs products. Even more about their customer support. Sorry, but I have to say that. Remember dropping of Direct X-support in Nuendo? That says it all. Rendered a lot of plugins worthless for us and we had to buy them as VST again. Should not happen.
Arjan P wrote:
planetgroove wrote:NO discussion.
You know what: you - and you only - are totally 100% right.
At this point, I would say: yes! Do you really want to discuss, that delivering error-free audio output (in mere terms of counts of samples) is the foremost priority for a digital audio editor? OK, feel free to do that. I'd say, that everything else could go wrong in the software/GUI, but not that. If you have to check by ear, whether the output of a digital system on the mere technical basis is correct, then you nearly can dump the whole software - or you entitle it as "vintage" (that's my portion of irony/sarcasm at this point :lol: ).
pwhodges wrote: If you have ever worked with software you would know that this is a reasonable sequence, in a reasonable timescale - shouting about how bad it is doesn't make fixing faults any easier, in this field, the same as any other.

Paul
If I work with software (what I did and do) I do intensive testing before I slap it out. Sure there can be little cosmetical problems, I would agree to that. But rendering audio material with dropouts is one of the most severe faults, an audio editor can have. If everything else goes wrong - that at least should work 100% flawlessly.
I think you would agree, right?

As said earlier: You can make a fault (as that is only human), but don't do it twice.
I appreciate, that Steinberg recognized the problem at least and is working on a solution. What I don't understand is, that it did not strike to anybody at Steinberg BEFORE releasing the software. That makes me suspicious and leads me to the (I think legitimate) question, where the priorities of the developers/testers are. I can add to this, that I wrote to Steinberg, that the sound of a rendered DDP-image is (now: was) not the same as the original sound in the project window, even if I had ticked the checkbox "don't use master section" (and had no processors in the chain), hence should have been 100% the same output (with no recalculation). Guess what? I never got an answer from the support. And if you now look at the list of changes for the newest version, they write that there was a (obviously now corrected) bug with exactly this (the audio went through the master-section though that was switched off). I did not use DDP-rendering after my findings, since I don't want the software to alter my work in a not intended and unwanted way. Can I now? That is the question.
So I ask it again: What should be the top priority for an audio editor? The count of features or the quality of the software? Can we trust Steinberg to have the right priorities?
Maybe I'm too demanding, OK. I'd agree to that. But what else leads to improvement?
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