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Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:44 pm
by lovegames
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:48 pm
It depends on what type of work you do and how you work.

If you're in post for example and are mixing just a plain old TV show to -24LFKS then it could very well be that you set dialog event level to close to -24LKFS and then ride faders to adjust for the dynamics of it. That can be done in various ways but I tend to use touch-trim when I do it even in Pro Tools which doesn't have this issue. I do it because it's easier to just quickly go back and, well, 'trim' something. So in this case I'm not bothered at all by the initial node. It makes zero difference.

If I'm riding music levels I'll probably go into latch for the first pass and so again it simply doesn't matter that there's a node there because I'll inevitably pull levels down before the first music hits anyway.

Or to state it all a different way: There's virtually no use-case for a lot of TV/broadcast/internet work where I don't end up writing automation from the beginning somewhere, and as soon as that's done there's an automation node there. So if it's there before initial writing or not makes zero difference.

I suppose if you're mixing music you might want it all clean and just move faders around without writing automation. I typically end up writing it anyway even if it's static because I want to be sure it recalls properly and avoid human error (i.e. I accidentally move a fader).

So for me templates worked in this regard.

What are the use-cases for you where you can't work with a template with an initial value of "unity gain" nodes at the top of the project?
It's too complicated to explain right now, it's just annoying. My templates are incredibly planned and structured but this area so to say is where I like to have things "loose" and then often end up writing automation later to obtain the required precision. Or for instance, I've set up everything so that the channels controlled by VCAs are feeding into a group channel that is free and so I can push gain into that group which maybe has a compressor on it - my VCA is raising volume on the tracks which hit a compressor harder. Usually I'm starting all this work just positioning fader levels freely without automation though, and then wanting to adjust overall with the VCA, and then automate.

but I guess I have to think about how to avoid all this now.

Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:47 pm
by MattiasNYC
I understand.

So in your case I'd probably look into putting together a macro that can activate desired automation settings when adjusting things freely. You could for example have one key that puts you in preview mode and suspends volume automation read at the same time and then also sets the punch in parameters to "to beginning" and "to end", or whatever they're called. So that would override an initial node while you're adjusting faders on any given track.

Alternatively I would imagine it would be possible to create a macro that would quickly write automation on selected tracks to "protect" them while retaining fader position.

I'm not arguing that any of this is the way it should be of course, I'm just trying to see if there's any way you could workaround it so you could be more productive.

Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:40 pm
by Getalife2
lovegames wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:44 pm

It's too complicated to explain right now, it's just annoying. My templates are incredibly planned and structured but this area so to say is where I like to have things "loose" and then often end up writing automation later to obtain the required precision. Or for instance, I've set up everything so that the channels controlled by VCAs are feeding into a group channel that is free and so I can push gain into that group which maybe has a compressor on it - my VCA is raising volume on the tracks which hit a compressor harder. Usually I'm starting all this work just positioning fader levels freely without automation though, and then wanting to adjust overall with the VCA, and then automate.

but I guess I have to think about how to avoid all this now.
Okay that explains your use for lots of VCAs especially in a large template. I get it.

Gain staging as a creative tool is not something many people do in the box. I've been doing it for years and it's a huge part of how I mix but I have some proprietary DSP hardware and software that makes it make even more sense in my case. Don't often come across someone like you who is doing it in a more traditional system. I think it's smart.

If you're considering doing this in Nuendo you really should vet its reliability. Set up a ridiculously complicated nested VCA scenario that you might find yourself in one day and then save it, open it, mess with it, save it, open it and so forth until you satisfy yourself that what you do won't bite you in the butt down the road. Because if the VCAs get squirrely at some point when automated, you're going to be pulling your hair out trying to figure out what ruined your mix.

There is nothing written in these forums that indicates that automated VCAs are bulletproof at this point, and in addition I'm fairly certain Cubase projects and Nuendo projects are not VCA compatible.

I wish there was better news for you.

Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:51 pm
by lovegames
Getalife2 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:40 pm
lovegames wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:44 pm

It's too complicated to explain right now, it's just annoying. My templates are incredibly planned and structured but this area so to say is where I like to have things "loose" and then often end up writing automation later to obtain the required precision. Or for instance, I've set up everything so that the channels controlled by VCAs are feeding into a group channel that is free and so I can push gain into that group which maybe has a compressor on it - my VCA is raising volume on the tracks which hit a compressor harder. Usually I'm starting all this work just positioning fader levels freely without automation though, and then wanting to adjust overall with the VCA, and then automate.

but I guess I have to think about how to avoid all this now.
Okay that explains your use for lots of VCAs especially in a large template. I get it.

Gain staging as a creative tool is not something many people do in the box. I've been doing it for years and it's a huge part of how I mix but I have some proprietary DSP hardware and software that makes it make even more sense in my case. Don't often come across someone like you who is doing it in a more traditional system. I think it's smart.

If you're considering doing this in Nuendo you really should vet its reliability. Set up a ridiculously complicated nested VCA scenario that you might find yourself in one day and then save it, open it, mess with it, save it, open it and so forth until you satisfy yourself that what you do won't bite you in the butt down the road. Because if the VCAs get squirrely at some point when automated, you're going to be pulling your hair out trying to figure out what ruined your mix.

There is nothing written in these forums that indicates that automated VCAs are bulletproof at this point, and in addition I'm fairly certain Cubase projects and Nuendo projects are not VCA compatible.

I wish there was better news for you.
Yeah, I figure I'm going to create a reduced version of the template without the VCAs

Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:02 am
by Sunshy
Ok, I will give vcas a try again. :)

Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:59 am
by lovegames
Sunshy wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:02 am
Ok, I will give vcas a try again. :)
just be aware of this problem: viewtopic.php?f=291&t=159320&start=25#p918280
there are a couple semi-workarounds for it.

Re: Does Nuendo have 32 VCA fader limit like Cubase? Would appreciate comment from Developers if workaround is safe

Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:37 am
by Sunshy
One step forward, two steps back ;-)