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Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:25 pm
by MattiasNYC
Oliver, the people here who say Nuendo is workable for them are post guys doing some pretty large projects.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:07 pm
by klfnk
dear Oliver,

//Just observing..., everybody seems to see his or her part of the truth.//
Yes and you are not an exception it seems.

I'm practically saying that N10 is a fine product. and I am Post Production sound designer.
Yes RX needs fixing, but if you read the actual posts on what is going wrong, you''ll notice that's not a bug, it's inherent to having an offline process outside of Nuendo..

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:26 pm
by uarte
yonah wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:44 pm

It's bug fixes! But they make some significant changes without asking...
It's not just bug fixes, re-read the list -- some big ticket items that people have been requesting for a long time are in there. And yes, bugfixes happen to be GOOD too, remember? And people ask for bugfixes, right? There are several bugfixes in there plus great features that I asked for, and I'm not Fredo or Hans Zimmer.

As for Steinberg making certain changes that disrupt prior workflow, YES, I think we all agree that they have done this from time to time in the past and they have been strongly criticized by people about it -- I was not happy with DOP's launch for example. The DOP feature taking over for prior workflow was very frustrating. But how long are you going to beat the dead horse on that? I think they learned from that lesson and haven't made that same level mistake again. DOP was introduced 2+ years ago! Give it a rest by now. Let's focus on bugfixing for it now and making it work well with our critical plugins. YES, they rushed DOP and should have been more careful. YES they make mistakes, but every single large developer makes that kind of mistake, and they are also trying to innovate, so occasionally they take a risk and it backfires. They have been releasing patches for two years now on DOP and YES, many of us agree that they should have left the OLD workflow in there at the same time as introducing DOP. They messed up. Got it. I agree. They got the message. They've been trying to fix it, it works much better now, and they haven't made that level of mistake in two years, life has to go on.

As for some other comparatively minor workflow issues they've messed up on recently, each one of those was in the spirit of innovation, and they do need to be more cautious about introducing those kinds of changes while maintaining past workflow whenever possible. However, that's a far cry from "Steinberg never listens, Steinberg doesn't care."

My main point is that they've also released *many* other features and bugfixes that many, many people have been asking for -- not just Fredo and Hans Zimmer. They are indeed LISTENING, even though they are far from perfect. Steinberg is made up of people like you and me who DO care and listen, but they obviously have more to do to make you happy. But please, for the love of Odin, Zeus, the Giant Space Unicorn and the all DAW gods, can people here please stop using all these "absolute" statements about how "no one at Steinberg cares, no one listens, no one uses Nuendo for post, Nuendo is totally broken, Nuendo is useless." Good grief! I thought there were supposed to be more pros here in this forum who knew how the world works, and any pro knows how software dev from big developers like Steinberg goes, and there is NOTHING perfect out there -- go visit Avid and remember how awful it is -- Steinberg is Disneyland compared to some of Avid's issues... the bottom line is that Nuendo is excellent, innovative, powerful, mature, post production software that many pros are using on feature films, major releases, minor releases and everything in between, and really nothing else on the market covers what Nuendo can do in one box. Is it perfect? No, of course not. It definitely has flaws, and Steinberg needs to remember the lesson of DOP and improve their communication skills too, but you're NOT going to be listened to seriously by anyone if your constant mantra is "nothing works, no one cares, no one listens."

So I've said my peace on it, and I honestly know better than to engage in threads like this. But it really bugs me when I see language like this in an ostensibly pro forum where the noise to fact ratio is so out of balance, it's no wonder that Steinberg doesn't take time to comment on every thread.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:02 pm
by klfnk
hear hear

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:27 pm
by audiomonkeys
yonah wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:43 am
N10 is a total and complete misunderstanding by software designers for whom they make their product.
just finished 11 movies and two series for Disney, besides the odd issue I think SB ( Nuendo) is the tool for us.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:54 pm
by grayter1
audiomonkeys wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:27 pm
yonah wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:43 am
N10 is a total and complete misunderstanding by software designers for whom they make their product.
just finished 11 movies and two series for Disney, besides the odd issue I think SB ( Nuendo) is the tool for us.
That's good to hear. I just switched from Pro Tools, and after reading this thread, I was beginning to think I made a mistake. That said, I'm loving N10. Since I'm new, I don't have holdovers from previous versions. All I have is my PT experience, and with that, I'm glad I switched.

tg

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:36 pm
by Dietz
uarte wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:26 pm
"no one listens, no one uses Nuendo for post, Nuendo is totally broken, Nuendo is useless." [...] "nothing works, no one cares, no one listens."
This is not the message. If you would have read carefully you would have seen that complaints also come from people who work with Nuendo on a professional level since 15, in my case even 20 years. We always thought that this software was the most advanced and most complete DAW of all, but some of us are afraid to see this status melting away in a somewhat seasonable mediocrity.

If you can live with that - fine. There are others who care and who would like to change it for the better.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:23 am
by yonah
Dietz wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:36 pm
uarte wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:26 pm
"no one listens, no one uses Nuendo for post, Nuendo is totally broken, Nuendo is useless." [...] "nothing works, no one cares, no one listens."
This is not the message. If you would have read carefully you would have seen that complaints also come from people who work with Nuendo on a professional level since 15, in my case even 20 years. We always thought that this software was the most advanced and most complete DAW of all, but some of us are afraid to see this status melting away in a somewhat seasonable mediocrity.

If you can live with that - fine. There are others who care and who would like to change it for the better.
I work in Nuendo since 1.5. I've soldered a wire to connect it to Betacam SP. Now somebody teach me what is right and what is wrong and that the bug is the feature. I can't work in N10. It's dead end.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:59 am
by Oliver.Lucas
Dietz wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:36 pm
uarte wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:26 pm
"no one listens, no one uses Nuendo for post, Nuendo is totally broken, Nuendo is useless." [...] "nothing works, no one cares, no one listens."
This is not the message. If you would have read carefully you would have seen that complaints also come from people who work with Nuendo on a professional level since 15, in my case even 20 years. We always thought that this software was the most advanced and most complete DAW of all, but some of us are afraid to see this status melting away in a somewhat seasonable mediocrity.

If you can live with that - fine. There are others who care and who would like to change it for the better.
Spot on.
I have left Nuendo after using it from v3.
Things don‘t get better because you repeat a mantra.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:44 pm
by JezCorbett
uarte wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:26 pm
I was not happy with DOP's launch for example. The DOP feature taking over for prior workflow was very frustrating. But how long are you going to beat the dead horse on that? I think they learned from that lesson and haven't made that same level mistake again. DOP was introduced 2+ years ago! Give it a rest by now. Let's focus on bugfixing for it now and making it work well with our critical plugins. YES, they rushed DOP and should have been more careful. YES they make mistakes, but every single large developer makes that kind of mistake, and they are also trying to innovate, so occasionally they take a risk and it backfires. They have been releasing patches for two years now on DOP and YES, many of us agree that they should have left the OLD workflow in there at the same time as introducing DOP. They messed up. Got it. I agree. They got the message. They've been trying to fix it, it works much better now, and they haven't made that level of mistake in two years, life has to go on.
DOP is still horribly broken, has been horribly broken for 2+ years and any efforts Steinberg has made towards fixing it has been woefully inadequate.

They still don't even publicly acknowledge its even a problem, and it's this attitude that is the worst element of their corporate behaviour of all.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:26 pm
by Christian van Caine
"DOP"? To me that means Director Of Photography, why do I have a sneaking suspicion it just got a second meaning here?

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:50 pm
by MattiasNYC
I just misread your name as "von Carne".

Time for lunch..

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:32 pm
by Christian van Caine
MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:50 pm
I just misread your name as "von Carne".

Time for lunch..
I must change my first name to Chili ;-)

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:38 pm
by Christian van Caine
Ah, Direct Offline Processing. Yeah, the jury's still out but feels like a good idea still not without some need of improvement. And a return to the right-click menu.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:51 pm
by Fredo
JezCorbett wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:31 pm
Let's be honest. You have a good, personal relationship with Steinberg. Like people like Hans Zimmer, they listen to you, and fix stuff that affects you.
You can not be more wrong. I have zero influence.

Fredo

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:59 pm
by Chewy Papadopoulos
ErikG wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:44 am

Transparent events? It is a intended change we can disagree with it but there nothing “wrong” with changing behaviour as such. It is called development.
Though I agree with the context of your reply, a correction: Transparent Events was *not* an intended change. It was an overlooked artifact of the switch over to Cubase code, and the many of us who miss it very much are looking forward to its return, which we've been told they're "looking into."

Chewy

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:51 pm
by Getalife2
To whom it may concern,

If one of the previous versions of Nuendo works better for you and your workflow, why not save the money and just stick with what works?

Seriously. What about that does not make sense? I used Neve, SSL, API and Trident consoles for years and years. They worked fine and I made lots of hit records on them. Pretty much none of them added features after you bought it. That concept still works today if you prefer. I mean if Nuendo 7 or 8 was rocking your world, hang with it.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:07 pm
by Dietz
@Getalife2:

Believe it or not, I'm sticking to Nuendo 5.5.6 whenever the production at hand allows for it. That's why I know what we miss. :-P

But sometimes upgrading a question of urgently needed new features, sometimes the (maybe irrational) hope for long-awaited bug fixes, sometimes a question of compatibility with your clients' work; sometimes it's the brutal fact that OS- and/or DAW-manufacturers drop support for one or the other - and sometimes you just need some expenses for your income tax statement. ;-)

In any case you will have paid money for something that - at least - shouldn't make your life harder than it was before, should it?

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:24 am
by Getalife2
Dietz wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:07 pm
@Getalife2:

Believe it or not, I'm sticking to Nuendo 5.5.6 whenever the production at hand allows for it. That's why I know what we miss. :-P

But sometimes upgrading a question of urgently needed new features, sometimes the (maybe irrational) hope for long-awaited bug fixes, sometimes a question of compatibility with your clients' work; sometimes it's the brutal fact that OS- and/or DAW-manufacturers drop support for one or the other - and sometimes you just need some expenses for your income tax statement. ;-)

In any case you will have paid money for something that - at least - shouldn't make your life harder than it was before, should it?
I completely respect that and in general agree.

Part of it for me is that I've burned tons of calories over the last 30 years banging away at people about what they should do different with their software starting as a beta guy for C-lab on Creator then Notator. Eric Persing and I were their main American guys and at that point the Germans were a good bit less excited about what Americans had to say regarding their software than they even are today! :-) it's true, Believe It or Not!!

I will say that unless you form a relationship with a manufacturer in some way shape or form your individual opinion is not likely to sway much. I have been in that position of influence with a number of companies and I've had a decent amount of direct-input even regarding Eucon and post features in Nuendo especially in the early years before Yamaha bought Steinberg and Avid bought Euphonix.

So from that perspective I can tell you that Forum rants feel good while you do them but really aren't going to move the dial. That said, sometimes that's just what you got to do. I've done my own share. But this really is a tempest in a teapot relative to real world changes that will or won't transpire.

So let the cathartic ranting continue and may it have a soothing effect on yon ranters!

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:23 am
by Dietz
I see what you're saying, although from an European perspective: I was raised with the utopian idea of mutual communication and its benefits. ;-)

It might be worth adding that I have a faint understanding of the audio software business as a developer, too. In fact it is the main reason why I feel an increasing disgust caused by the nowadays generally wide-spread "good enough" attitude (... not aimed at Steinberg in particular). Typically it means dumbing down admittedly complex tools to appeal broader target groups while losing focus of the actual tasks ... a nice allegory, looking at the blurry, but oh so timely GUI of NU10.

Whatever. *sigh*

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:17 pm
by Oliver.Lucas
Getalife2 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:51 pm
...
Seriously. What about that does not make sense? I used Neve, SSL, API and Trident consoles for years and years. They worked fine and I made lots of hit records on them.
...
Getalife2 I read this often, but technology is a fast changing market, especially in the digital domain. We did not have RX when Nuendo was released, we did not have auto align post (well Nuendo users still don't have it), we did not have, RevoicePro. Most of the time we did not have to match multiple field recorder takes via edls and metadata and reconforming was handled manually.
In the music market that you refer to, things might be a little different, it's all about VST plugs there and fast computers but Nuendo was marketed as a post tool and there the things mentioned are really of high importance.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:52 pm
by GSlawson
Like Getalife2, I started with C-Lab Notator and Creator, but also used Cubase, Dr. T and Hybrid Arts on the Atari ST. I was a Beta tester for Dr. T and Hybrid Arts, but I kept gravitating to Cubase. After using it primarily for composition, I moved this spring from PTHD to Nuendo, and I am very happy. The coalescence of Cubase and Nuendo made it very easy for me, but I can understand why folks that have been users for 10 years find some of the changes disturbing. I don't think it was released prematurely. I find the DOP to be fantastic for post production. Since I don't know what came before it in Nuendo I can't compare it, but at least from my perspective I find it extremely useful. My first project in Nuendo was a 74 minute film with a lot of exterior dialogue shot during the evening with an ever changing chorus of cicadas and night peepers. DOP really helped me reign in the noise from take to take without having to automate plugins, and after the mix I could go back and tweak things. A far as manufacturers go, my experience has been that the people involved in programming are trying to make a total package the best it can be. 20 years ago we were still cutting tape together for delivering commercials to radio stations. I love where the industry has gone and where Steinberg, in particular has taken us.

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:39 pm
by Getalife2
Hybrid Arts SMPTE Track on an Atari ST. Blast from the ancient digital past!

No lie I went down and bought an Atari ST, SMPTE Track two Akai S900, an MKS80 Super Jupiter and a few other keyboards and just drove in. It was 1987.

Talk about beginner's luck. The very first song I programmed ended up being a #1 single and that little Atari made me a fortune over the next decade. To this day, it sits in a place of honor near my studio. Thanks for reminding me of how cool SMPTE Track was, GSlawson!

Young guys. The entire OS for the computer loaded from a 360k byte floppy disk every time you booted it up. That's right, the whole operating system was about 300k. The whole computer had 1MB which was a luxurious amount of memory. Now you know why sometimes us older guys think you guys are a little bit whiny. Please take no offense we just complain about other things.

(sorry for the off-topic stroll down memory lane)

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:38 am
by Dietz
Getalife2 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:39 pm
[...] Now you know why sometimes us older guys think you guys are a little bit whiny. Please take no offense we just complain about other things.
Well, considering the fact that I got 55*) just yesterday, I assume it's a great thing to be called "young guy" by a youngster like you. ;-)

*) ... bought my first Roland MPU-401 MIDI interface in 1984

Re: Was Nuendo Ten Premature?

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:29 pm
by ErikG
Well. It is well known that as soon as sound folks turn 55 they start complaining ;-)