Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

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drorh4
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Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by drorh4 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:44 pm

Hey.
I think it since 8 version but maybe after the last 8.3, I don't know.

Main problem:
When I'm setting up my project, I choose in the "Pan law" at -6, I don't see any reason to hear the mix in a different level than the final file level.
(It took me a while to understand why the final file after export IS NOT at the same level of the software. If someone can explain the logic to do otherwise I will be happy to learn.
Anyway.
I work on -6. For some unknown reason, all the faders now are works like a brickwall limiter of -6db @ nominal fader level 0. WHY??
yesterday I had a guitar session and I couldn't get why I have a brickwall limiting at -6 on the master, and it took hours to get to the bottom of this.
It wasn't like that before for sure.

So, if I want the FULL SCALE, I need to set the project to 0 "pan law" what makes the project much louder to work on but totally different than the final file - what is more basic than exporting and checking the product at the same level as it was in the DAW?

Why "pan law" (i know what pan law is all about), is now limiting dynamics?

I don't know if its some practical decision or a bug, but this is very bad.

can someone elaborate about that?
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Pan law isn't doing any dynamic limiting and I'm not sure what it is you're asking. Setting the pan law will attenuate the signal in the center to compensate for perceived level changes as you pan across the image. What you're visually seeing in the meters is going to depend on where your meters are tapping the signal (input, post-fader, post-panner) which may be confusing you.

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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by drorh4 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:35 pm

Pan law isn't supposed to do limiting. that's correct.
But also, It has nothing to do with limiting the recording to -6 dBfs as seen in the pic. There is a big difference between the perceived level of the center to being limited by the fader itself.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:34 pm

I don't understand what you're asking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_law might help you understand what's going on.

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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by drorh4 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:59 pm

What I'm asking is:

1- Why the Channel fader of the channel is acting as a limiter instead of having the compensation "underneath" the surface. This is MEGA confusing when tracking and mixing. Working without seeing the clipping red led cause you are -6db and not 0.
If I'm working in -6 config, I still need to read meters as I use to which mean digital full scale.

It is stupid to have a meter showing -6 brickwall (cause physical law says so) and not see the clipping LED cause you're not at 0.

2- When we are talking about pan law, we mostly talk about human perception and not the voltage mathematics behind it. So if we go into specifics, at the end it should be -3 ( SPL preception) and not -6

3- I already explained, that the reason I work in -6 config is cause Nuendo has this absurd concept of rendering the file without compensation so on any other pan low config I will have the DAW sound louder than the exported file. This is very bad for me and the client who ask "hey, at the studio, it was much more exciting.

On any proper analog mixer, you have electronic circuits that do "this or that" to let you FEEL the end summing is not far from the channels playing altogether. for example - 10k resistor at the channel output, to level down before summing.
So,
4. how come exporting in -6 is the only way to hear the DAW and the exported file at the same level? I need to hear in the DAW and outside the DAW at the same level at all times.

I double checked the thing with PT and Logic - both acting totally different (-3db) while PT tells you ON THE CHANNEL METER you are clipping @0dBfs and the summed up signal is only -3dB (dBSPL emulation) at -6 pan law config.
Logic doesn't confuse you at all, as expected, things are done under the surface and you can track and mix without the extra calculations and fader limits. Plus, I don't even need to add, exported file sound the same at all pan law configurations.


5. When hard pan on the master instead of one side to get louder, it stays at -6db the other side goes down completely.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:52 pm

I think you're getting confused due to the point at which you're tapping the signal for metering. It sounds like you have meters set to post-panner instead of input or post-fader.

I'm not sure why you think the DAW sounds louder than the exported file? Of course with different pan laws you will balance faders differently depending on where things are in the stereo field assuming you produce an identical mix per pan law. Remember also that the default panner on stereo tracks is a balance panner which is not affected by the pan law setting.

As you can see from the images there is no difference between PT and Nuendo when the meter tap points are set at the same point and when Nuendo is set to the same pan law as PT.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by MattiasNYC » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:13 pm

1212,

+1 on the "-3"

my 0.02
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by stingray » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:09 pm

Agree with twelve twelve that there seems to be no difference between Nuendo and Pro Tools in this regard.
drorh4 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:44 pm
For some unknown reason, all the faders now are works like a brickwall limiter of -6db @ nominal fader level 0. WHY??
That should not be the case. If I set up the test signal as I see it in you screenshot above I do not see the same as you. With the pan law set to -6 and with a 0dB test signal on a stereo track, I see 0dB on the meters of both the stereo track and the stereo output (global metering set to post fader or post panner). If you set this up in a new empty project I'm sure you'll get the same result.
drorh4 wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:59 pm
3- I already explained, that the reason I work in -6 config is cause Nuendo has this absurd concept of rendering the file without compensation...
I'm not sure that is true. If you choose -6dB pan law setting with your 0dB test signal on a mono track, the master stereo output meters will read -6dB when the signal is panned centre. If you export selecting the stereo output, the level of the resulting stereo audio file will also be -6dB... so as far as I can tell the compensation is rendered.
drorh4 wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:59 pm
5. When hard pan on the master instead of one side to get louder, it stays at -6db the other side goes down completely.
If you are metering post fader, strictly speaking that's not what happens. With pan law set to -6dB, when you hard pan your 0dB test signal on a mono track, one side (on the stereo output meters) will go up to 0dB and the other side will go down completely, and when you pan centre the level will be -6dB. As far as I can tell this is the correct behaviour.

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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by drorh4 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:57 pm

twelvetwelve wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:52 pm
I'm not sure why you think the DAW sounds louder than the exported file?
Remember also that the default panner on stereo tracks is a balance panner which is not affected by the pan law setting.

As you can see from the images there is no difference between PT and Nuendo when the meter tap points are set at the same point and when Nuendo is set to the same pan law as PT.
twelvetwelve.
I'm sorry, but it seems you are trying really hard to prove me wrong without even consider the idea that I do have a problem, considering the points I wrote. I have a few situations that are obviously irregular for someone working with Nuendo/Cubase/PT for 15 years.
I have an issue here which oddly enough after restarting the computer and program - went away, that might be a sign for a bug.
I uploaded a very specific pic showing a really odd case.
your picture is totally different. You can see that in your case you have mono meter and I have a stereo meter on a mono track.

Sorry but you can't be far from showing any understanding of the things Im talking about and still say something like "you think the software sound louder".
I dont think. I know.

Instead of asking the basic questions just to understand what Im dealing with you are in the conclusions from step 1.

I hope to have more pragmatic help from someone else.

Thnx anyway.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:51 pm

I'll say it once more and then I'm out.

- If you have stereo meters on a mono track you're monitoring post-panner so of course your metering is going to reflect your pan law settings in that instance.
- If the resulting output file sounds different to how you're hearing it then it sounds like you've got doubled up outputs with the control room.
- If it is indeed a bug (and it doesn't sound like it) then provide a clear set of steps to reproduce the issue.

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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:00 pm

drorh4 wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:57 pm
I hope to have more pragmatic help from someone else.

Thnx anyway.
Post step-by-step repro instructions.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by drorh4 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:33 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:00 pm
drorh4 wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:57 pm
I hope to have more pragmatic help from someone else.

Thnx anyway.
Post step-by-step repro instructions.
Yeah Mattias, thnx. I read today but freelanced in some other studio. I will check in steps tomorrow.

twelvetwelve -
thnx for your last comment.
I'm sure Im not in double monitoring(99.9% sure) but i will double check it.
If it is a post panner situation, I never activated it so it is weird anyway.
thnx
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by drorh4 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:50 pm

BTW..
take a look at the pic I added now.
This is the same project, the same channel, test tone, same setting the same everything - totally different metering
acting as normal as ever. i dont know what happend but I think this is after restarting the DAW.

Im on post panner as default, never changed it, god forbid, I never knew where it was i the menu (deep in there).
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by stingray » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:15 pm

Please clarify. What does this screenshot show?

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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:14 pm

drorh4 wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:33 pm
Yeah Mattias, thnx. I read today but freelanced in some other studio. I will check in steps tomorrow.
I think it's best to narrow it down as much as possible when troubleshooting. So in your case just delete all channels/tracks except for the one giving you problems, and then do a step-by-step repro that we can follow and do ourselves.

Also, when posting images try to show the exact same things with the same layout/framing in the various pictures. Otherwise we have to spend time trying to understand what we're looking at rather than why it's looking the way it does.

PS: I understand you did this with little time to spare so it's understandable it isn't a complete repro. It's just a friendly nudge for the next post(s).
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by Wheels » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:02 pm

It does sound like you have outputs double assigned which is a frequent problem in Nuendo. Hit F4 and make sure there are no outputs assigned on the Outputs page, the outputs should only be assigned on the Control Room page which I can see you are using in your jpg.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by Graveley » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:06 am

Wheels wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:02 pm
It does sound like you have outputs double assigned which is a frequent problem in Nuendo. Hit F4 and make sure there are no outputs assigned on the Outputs page, the outputs should only be assigned on the Control Room page which I can see you are using in your jpg.
This!
You most likely have Nuendo “control room” monitor assigned to physical outputs of your converters AND Nuendo “stereo out” assigned to the same outputs of your converters. Double monitoring. 6db louder. Nothing to do with pan law.
Set “stereo out” to “Not connected.” Leave control room as is.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by drorh4 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:12 pm

As I said already, No double assign.
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Re: Cant figure out the Pan law system in Nuendo. BUG?

Post by stingray » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:31 pm

AFAIK there is no issue in Nuendo with regard to levels and pan law. The pan law functions as expected in all cases. I suggest you do a clean test starting with a new empty project.

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