Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

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Niles
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Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 pm

Currently I have 8 MIDI controllers attached through Generic Remote > VST Quick Control Manager > Device > Quick Control 1-8.
However, is it possible to attach another 16 CC's to Quick Controls 9 to 24, so I can control all parameters from three Quick Control layers/pages at once?

Also does somebody know if a QC page can be switched from a generic remote and if yes, how?

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:45 am

Maybe my question isn't clear.
Here's an illustration of what I want to control from a Generic Remote.

Image

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:22 pm

Nobody knows?
Or is it simply not possible to control more than 8 QC's at the same time from a GR?

Nobody knows either how a QC page can be switched from a generic remote?
Is their a KC to switch QC pages? The manual nor help isn't helping here.

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Raphie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:21 pm

QC’s are limited to 8 slots, you can map the remaining parameters via a remote control editor map
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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:42 pm

Raphie wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:21 pm
QC’s are limited to 8 slots, you can map the remaining parameters via a remote control editor map
Yes, but how do I access those mapped remaining parameters from the generic remote?
The GR is only able to access QC 1 to 8, however I want to be able to control all the mapped parameters.

M.a.w. ik wil graag toegang met een generic remote tot alle parameters die zijn toegewezen via de remote controle editor. Niet alleen de eerste 8.
De vraag is: hoe?

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Raphie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:36 pm

By saving mappings and selecting them once the VST has the focus
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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Brian Roland » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:28 pm

Niles wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:42 pm
Raphie wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:21 pm
QC’s are limited to 8 slots, you can map the remaining parameters via a remote control editor map
Yes, but how do I access those mapped remaining parameters from the generic remote?
The GR is only able to access QC 1 to 8, however I want to be able to control all the mapped parameters.
My reply is a bit redundant to what others have posted here, but in hopes of offering some hyper linked references and visual help.

The Track Quick Controls (QL) remote map is limited to 8 events. They can be snapped as a group to a given track inspector control group, or an active VST/i automation lane's QL 'set/page' one at a time. A single QL event mapping can only control a single VST meta event at a time. These are meant to allow you to use the same set of 8 physical devices to do a variety of things in the DAW simply by toggling a QL page as active for the moment. I.E. Use a bank of 8 faders on your MIDI keyboard controller with a simple universal mapping to do different things for a given armed/selected track.

The Generic Remote Device is designed for remote controlling the entire DAW. This serves as a back-end to configure a potentially limitless number of remote controllers to CuBase (I.E. Multiple motorized mixing consoles in different rooms of a studio, remote modem based operations, jog wheels, MPC controllers, foot controllers, sync generators, pedals, and more). Here's an interesting visual showing how it is possible to link almost everything in CuBase to a remote control event through one of these maps.
Image

In addition to 'generic' maps which will work with any General MIDI device, CuBase also provides a number of proprietary back-ends that include sysex and other types of information that can increase controller resolution, decrease latency, and add other more advanced feature sets. If you have specialized audio automation controllers, check to see if special maps are not available for your device among the list of 'remote devices'.

The number of events in a map is only limited to the number of possible MIDI events over a single MIDI Port. You can link a remote event to almost any meta controller, DAW command, or user macro command set in CuBase from here. If applicable you can even establish feedback for things like motorized faders, display feedback, control type, and more. All VST/i meta controls are available for linking (by instance name, then order in the event a plugin has multiple instances) provided the plugin is loaded at the time you access the remote map. When you wish to automate something that does not have a dedicated automation lane in the project editor, it is also possible to store such automation on a regular MIDI track that is routed through a virtual loop port back into the remote map (virtual port: for PC, for Mac). Like the QL remote, a generic remote in a given mapping can only mange one command per event type at a time (I.E. You can't have a single CC do volume in one Plugin and a filter in another at the 'same time'); however, you can over-ride this limitation by 'stacking maps' in cases where you truly want a single CC to do several different things in the DAW at once from a single controller event over the same channel/port.


The Generic Remote device approach is very dependent on your exact system setup. If you want a certain workflow to move with you from project to project, then you will need to gradually build up starting project templates that has things mapped out the way you want it, in the order you want it. The good news is that it's never more than a couple of clicks away to open the remote map and change or add things at will as needed. Generic Remote Maps also also you to set up 'virtual controller banks' that can easily be changed on the fly....so you can have a universal controller layout that can be easily be applied to a variety of different scenarios...I.E. One for mastering, one for general mixing, one for driving pumping synth configurations, one for working in step entry editors, one for tweaking reverbs, etc.

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 pm

Raphie wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:36 pm
By saving mappings and selecting them once the VST has the focus
How can I select them in the Generic Remote when the VST has focus?
For the record, I don't want to attach the VST as device to the Generic Remote. The power of attaching the QC's to the GR is that the same CC's can be used for different VST parameters.
Brian Roland wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:28 pm
Here's an interesting visual showing how it is possible to link almost everything in CuBase to a remote control event through one of these maps.
That's my question, maybe based on your image you can point me to the correct device + name for QC's residing on page 2 and up.
If I can attache those controls to my external controller it's easy to control any VST in focus and since it's global, remapping is obsolete.
Also how do you select Quick Control Layer (#10) with the Generic remote? What command is it in your image?

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Brian Roland » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:37 pm

Niles wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 pm
Raphie wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:36 pm
By saving mappings and selecting them once the VST has the focus
How can I select them in the Generic Remote when the VST has focus?
For the record, I don't want to attach the VST as device to the Generic Remote. The power of attaching the QC's to the GR is that the same CC's can be used for different VST parameters.
Brian Roland wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:28 pm
Here's an interesting visual showing how it is possible to link almost everything in CuBase to a remote control event through one of these maps.
That's my question, maybe based on your image you can point me to the correct device + name for QC's residing on page 2 and up.
If I can attache those controls to my external controller it's easy to control any VST in focus and since it's global, remapping is obsolete.
Also how do you select Quick Control Layer (#10) with the Generic remote? What command is it in your image?
For simplicity sake, to get some ideas....
1. Open a fresh project.
2. Load a few VST and VSTi plugins.
3. Create a new Generic Remote Device (Click the + box to add a new one).
4. Learn a slider, pot, or button from your controller in the top pane.
5. In the bottom pane click the fields and explore all the options that become available to link your learned control. You should find every single control of all your loaded Plugins listed somewhere in the sprawling cascades of drop-down menus.
6. Make sure you have the MIDI input for the Generic Remote Device set to your MIDI controller (for now, later you might want to divert things through virtual ports and MIDI tracks in order to automate them in through MIDI tracks).
7. Move the slider/pot....the control should move in your plugin. From now on It always responds whether the plugin is 'topped for viewing' or not.

Later you'll realize that you can easily toggle control sets for different needs, or simply disable them when you don't want them anymore (set the input to none, or make an empty preset in the device map).

Once you link something, export a copy of your remote map. From then on it should remember what you've done from session to session. Even if a plugin you have not assigned is not loaded at the moment, it'll still be remembered (links will show as number sequences instead of the initial links, but they'll still be valid once you've loaded said plugin again).

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Raphie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:51 pm

Niles, we had a long discussion about this in a different topic where I was were you are now. The topic is in my sig. Might be good to read that first, there are many roads that lead to Rome in this case.
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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:20 pm

Brian Roland wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:37 pm
For simplicity sake, to get some ideas....
I know how to set up a Generic Remote. But I still don't know how I can reach the Quick Controls on other pages than page 1.
When I'm able to connect my GR's Controllers to all (or a serie of) the knobs of the RCE it is possible to alter any VST parameter that is mapped to the RCE.

In the example I want my GR to control the RCE and the RCE on his turn controls the VST in focus (Set Remote-Control Focus).

Image

For instance Knob 1 to 8 on page 1 are always connected to CC# 1 to 8. Knob 1 to 8 on page 2 are always connected to CC# 9 to 16... etc.
This way when loading another 8 band graphic EQ, I can set it up in the RCE exactly the same way as other 8 band EQ's and for my GR it makes no difference if VST X or Y is loaded.

So I don't want to map VST's to my GR, but I want to map my GR to the RCE and map VST's to the RCE. The question is: how to map the GR to the RCE pages > 1?

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Brian Roland » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 am

Niles wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:20 pm
Brian Roland wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:37 pm
For simplicity sake, to get some ideas....
I know how to set up a Generic Remote. But I still don't know how I can reach the Quick Controls on other pages than page 1.
When I'm able to connect my GR's Controllers to all (or a serie of) the knobs of the RCE it is possible to alter any VST parameter that is mapped to the RCE.

In the example I want my GR to control the RCE and the RCE on his turn controls the VST in focus (Set Remote-Control Focus).

Image

For instance Knob 1 to 8 on page 1 are always connected to CC# 1 to 8. Knob 1 to 8 on page 2 are always connected to CC# 9 to 16... etc.
This way when loading another 8 band graphic EQ, I can set it up in the RCE exactly the same way as other 8 band EQ's and for my GR it makes no difference if VST X or Y is loaded.

So I don't want to map VST's to my GR, but I want to map my GR to the RCE and map VST's to the RCE. The question is: how to map the GR to the RCE pages > 1?
If you want to bind a QL to the control of a VST plugin that is loaded into a mixer effect slot, then it's done in the track inspector.
Image
If you're trying to run something that is loaded in the VSTi instrument rack, then you can also find it where the instrument's audio output track(s). It can also be done in the Instrument Rack for VSTi plugins.
Image
The catch is that with QL controls you can NOT access more than 8 at once. The 8 you want access to with a given single 8 control layout must be in the same 'active page' (8 across of a row your graph above). You can create alternate arrangements of 8 controller 'pages' in the VSTi remote editor page that is accessed by right clicking on the instrument rack.

QLs are done in a strict set of 8. It gets routed through the active track. You'll need to choose for 'each' QL (1-8) in the track inspector if you want to run a VSTi automation lane, or if you want to do other track automation (such as DAW Mixing console controls for the track, or meta controls for plugins loaded into a track's effect slot).

The point of the QL set is that you can quickly snap the 8 controller map to any track you like as needed. Toggle the R/W automation buttons as needed to record/playback your live controller motions. You point the 8 things you want to control for THAT TRACK. If you need multiple configurations for a particular track, then you go with 'track presets' to be able to swap among them as needed.

If you want access to a varied array of those VST meta controls all at once (as well as multiple plugins at once), at all times, from anywhere in the project, so that all you need do is toggle your R/W automation lanes; then, use the Generic Remote Mapping system described in earlier posts above.

You can use the same hardware layout to build multiple mappings to multiple plugins and easily change between them as needed with a Preset in the Generic Remote Map.
Image
So yes, you could easily change between different EQs for your fader/pot banks in a similar way as you would with QL controls. The biggest difference is that you would no longer be limited to 8 active controllers. Additional differences are that swapping what your map is linked to at any given moment is done through the Generic Map Presets on a more 'global' basis for the entire Project, instead of on an individual 'track by track basis', where different controller assignment mappings you might like for the track kept as part of the 'track preset'.

Under "studio/more options" in CuBase 9.5, you can call up a floating remote map preset selector (It, or individual presets living in it, can also be called up with key-bindings if you choose to build them in your setup profile).
Image

1. Start a fresh Generic Remote Map.
2. Learn the controllers across your hardware MIDI device.
3. Load your first EQ instance.
4. Map everything where you want it for that EQ.
5. Name the preset EQ1 (or whatever) and make sure it saves.
6. In the same Generic Remote Map start a new preset.
7. Load EQ2 and map it all out.
8. Name the preset.
9. Rinse, wash, repeat for as many overall control layouts as you want for that hardware device.
10. Export a backup your remote map to make sure it will initialize properly next time you use CuBase.

Now you can easily swap presets of the fly....you can even make key bindings or assign a remote button to cycle/change your 'presets' if you wish. You can always extend your presets as projects grow and change over time (Say you need multiple instances of the same EQ plugin, and so forth).

If you want to get fancy and really expand the flexibility of what all can be automated in the DAW, it's possible to route everything that goes into a Remote Map through a plain MIDI track (via virtual MIDI port) first....and record/edit/manage automation movements in the MIDI format as well! I've made a number of posts on this topic in this forum fairly recently on the technique. It allows one to do real time transformations and automation of many things in the DAW that don't get special track types or native automation lanes (Launch macros, arm/disarm tracks, manipulate cycle/punch points and arranger tracks, etc.). It also provides a great system for managing and editing multiple versions of automation ideas.
Last edited by Brian Roland on Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:51 am

Brian Roland wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 am
The catch is that with QL controls you can NOT access more than 8 at once.
That's the problem I'm trying to solve.
So it looks like I can not bind my GR to more than 8 VST QC's + 8 Mixer QC's at once. That's a bummer.
Brian Roland wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 am
The 8 you want access to with a given single 8 control layout must be in the same 'active page' (8 across of a row your graph above). You can create alternate arrangements of 8 controller 'pages' in the VSTi remote editor page that is accessed by right clicking on the instrument rack.
Exactly, that's what is shown in the image in my previous post. Now the question is, how can I access the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. page of the RCE from GR. I can select different pages/layers in the rack with the mouse, but I don't know what Device | Category | Action in the GR can select the different pages.
Hence my question in the opening post...
Niles wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 pm
Also does somebody know if a QC page can be switched from a generic remote and if yes, how?
...which unfortunately still remains unanswered.
Brian Roland wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 am
You can use the same hardware layout to build multiple mappings to multiple plugins and easily change between them as needed with a Preset in the Generic Remote Map.
Image
When I open a VST effect or Instrument I just want my GR to mirror the controls of the current device (Insert or Instrument) in focus, that's why the RCE is invented. Having to manually select a control preset is not only laborious, but also error prone.

In Studio One I simply mapped all my VST's to the External Device editor (the GR+RCE equivalent), when no VST is open it can control parameters globally. When a VST is opened (in focus) it pushes all the mapped settings to my External Device. This way my device instantly shows the correct controls and I instantly have hands on control without needing to think about switching presets.

Image

Read this post by Sming (especially the last sentence) and you'll probably understand where I'm coming from.
Unfortunately the url in point 2 isn't working.
sming wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:57 pm
Important notes

1. Not to be confused with MIDI learn for the generic remote setup, the "Learn" mode in RCE is similar to the one in the channel quick control block, which allows you to learn and assign the VST plugin parameter under your mouse click to the focused knob or switch of any cell in RCE.

2. For choosing the right layout in RCE for your HW, please refer to this table: https://www.steinberg.net/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4132

Note that if your hardware controller is not listed on the table, but emulates Mackie Control mode that allows you to control insert strip and VST plugins from the surface. Please see your device as "Mackie Control device" and use the "Standard Layout" for your MC-compatible device.

3. Once you got the particular plugin editing layer active on your hardware. Any change made on the RCE for that particular plugin will be reflected on the fly to your hardware whenever "Apply" is triggered.

So, in general, you only have to set up once for each VST plugin that does not deliver a meaningful parameter order initially for the VST plugin editing on your HW.

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Brian Roland » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:48 pm

Sorry, I'm not aware of how to force a Studio One workflow in non Studio One products.
Each product has various workflow features and quirks of its own.

Sometimes one just has to do things in CuBase in one of the 'CuBase Ways'.

Cubase has been around a long time, and we still do a lot of things in a very 'old school' way. There's not always a fancy UI, or user scriptable back-end for it...yet we can still carve out a personal work flow. Sometimes it even pays to invest in some third party power user tools that were designed to fill in 'missing feature gaps' of our main DAW (I.E. Bidule, VP, etc.).

Case in point: By investing in Plogue Bidule and Bome Translator, I've been able to plug endless 'missing feature' holes in every DAW I use. Things we will NEVER see develop in Sibelius, Finale, and Dorico, I've been doing for years thanks to Bidule and Bome. Things that are missing in CuBase and Reaper, I can do thanks to these types of 3rd party plugins and drivers (with even more 'cross DAW' portability). I don't have to 'wait for some future version'.
Niles wrote: When I open a VST effect or Instrument I just want my GR to mirror the controls of the current device (Insert or Instrument) in focus, that's why the RCE is invented. Having to manually select a control preset is not only laborious, but also error prone.
I beg to differ. To me having any controls automatically assign and modulate stuff just by simply bringing something into 'focus' would be barking up trouble tree. For one, stuff could get auto-bound that I'd never want bound to a remote control! Plus, I still need to check, calibrate, and confirm (arm) before any outside contraption gets the go ahead to change things in my DAW. Personally, I even route everything going to remote device maps through a grid of filtered MIDI tracks, so I can get the added ability and control over (arming/disarming/muting/soloing/filtering/etc) all remote control stuff at will. I keep an entire folder of MIDI tracks dedicated to remote control management. Controller movements do NOTHING in my projects until I give them permission to do so (typically by arming a MIDI track for recording or monitoring). Routing things through MIDI tracks also gives me an extra layer of flexibility in terms of 'real time transformation' of events before they hit the remote map. I also gain multiple levels of flexiblity in terms of recording/playing back/editing/versioning all of my automation movements. Routing through tracks can also eliminate the need to 'stack remote maps' if you need a single control to do several things at once (Just arm/disarm the relevant MIDI tracks and transform/echo on the fly).

In my mind there are two levels to remote automation.
1. Performance tracks. These route/manage my actual physical controller movements in their native MIDI format. I record them exactly as I played them in, and I can edit them in the pure MIDI format. No guessing...it's all there exactly as CuBase got it the first time around.

2. VST meta automation lanes. Personally I don't freeze anything into these lanes until the finishing and polishing phases of my project. The main reason I bother to freeze them at all is for the sake of project portability/compatibility (the project then still works with all of the remote maps taken offline or totally missing). It's far easier and more flexible to do it all from MIDI tracks, then freeze it in later while fine tuning things into true VST automation lanes last. Ever try nudging a range of VST automation lane events a few milliseconds either direction in time? Good luck with that....but with the MIDI performance tracks it's easy as a making a few clicks with scissor tool and nudging the part on the timeline (freeze it to a VST lane later). (Note, this is not to say that I don't often work directly with VST automation lanes....this mainly applies to things that I frequently do with REMOTE DEVICES).

We still need to go through the project and decide if we want to activate R/W on the automation lanes. We still need to take a moment to calibrate our controllers properly if we're using common physical devices in a 'bank fashion' like this. I.E. If I were using fader 1 at 10% in one plugin, then later wish to use that same fader for something that begins at 90%, I'll want to 'do the thing on my controller' where I can bring it up to 90% without sending any events (In my case I hold a button and re calibrate the slider, then release the button and it's good to go).

Unless you have a very sophisticated controller boards with motors that remember lots of things and automatically position themselves to the last position used for a given layout (keeping up with every individual plugins control positions requires a heavy back-end), all it would take would be a bump of the desk, or dust in a pot to intermittently destroy things just by bringing something into 'focus'. Does CuBase have the handshaking required to support this type of controller? I 'think' it does (I can't afford such controllers, and those who can usually hire an engineer along with the purchase to set it all up), but it's not going to be done by a single 'generic remote' device in this advanced of a case. You'll probably need a custom device map that comes with the hardware.

Personally, in my own workflow when 'recycling' a limited amount of hardware MIDI controllers for multiple purposes (8 faders, 8 pots, 8 buttons, 16 MPC pads, Breath, Mod, Pitch, 3 stomp pedals, 2 continuous pedals), I typically need a moment to double check what I'm about to do before I touch a physical Fader. I need to take a moment to calibrate the physical controls. At times I really need to simply build an entire map from scratch real quickly so it has 'exactly what I want/need' at hand for a given modulation or mix-down task. It only takes a second.

Of course there are some universal controls that almost ALWAYS desire instant access, at any time, from any place in the project. I.E. A profile that isolates my vocal tracks and all the most commonly tweaked settings, pops open some plugins for visual inspection, and has everything mapped out and ready to go. Personally, I just build macros for such things and bind them to a key-combo. From there I can assign that key-combo to a remote MIDI program change. When doing live takes I'll often bind such macros to a stomp pedal. I.E. Stomp pedal, my vocal tweaking setup flys on the screen ready to tweak by MIDI controllers. Stomp it again, they close and my controllers are reassigned to my favorite 'default' preset that basically just works the master mixing console. Stomp my second pedal, and my 'mains' effect chain flys open, all ready to tweak. Etc. Again, routing things through a MIDI track first gives me all kinds of flexibility in terms of 'transforming' controls on the fly (change a pedal stomp from CC to a program change, or whatever).

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Re: Is it possible to attach dedicated controllers to each VST QC page?

Post by Niles » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:55 am

Brian Roland wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:48 pm
Sorry, I'm not aware of how to force a Studio One workflow in non Studio One products.
Each product has various workflow features and quirks of its own.
Actually QC's already work that way, and it works great. The only problem is that only 8 controls are accessible at the time. While I have 32 endless encoders and 32 buttons physically available instantly and I would utilize them all.
Brian Roland wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:48 pm
I beg to differ. To me having any controls automatically assign and modulate stuff just by simply bringing something into 'focus' would be barking up trouble tree. For one, stuff could get auto-bound that I'd never want bound to a remote control!
That's where the RCE is for. You can map it the way you like.
Brian Roland wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:48 pm
Unless you have a very sophisticated controller boards with motors that remember lots of things and automatically position themselves to the last position used for a given layout (keeping up with every individual plugins control positions requires a heavy back-end), all it would take would be a bump of the desk, or dust in a pot to intermittently destroy things just by bringing something into 'focus'. Does CuBase have the handshaking required to support this type of controller? I 'think' it does (I can't afford such controllers, and those who can usually hire an engineer along with the purchase to set it all up), but it's not going to be done by a single 'generic remote' device in this advanced of a case. You'll probably need a custom device map that comes with the hardware.
I use endless encoders in combination with the Transmit in the GR. It's not that esoteric and expensive. The device itself doesn't need to remember anything but it's own MIDI CC#. Current QC values are simply transmitted by Cubase to the device as soon they are in focus and/or change. The device will visually reflect them (feedback) and will send from their current value back to Cubase when changed from the device.

An alternative to Transmit is using the Pick-up flag when the device isn't able to receive the current QC value. Works too, but no visual feedback and a little less hands on.

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