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automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:01 pm
by entoine
Hi,
it seems automation reading is broken when using virgin territory....
Before the update, it work as espected.. moving in a "virgin territory" where the was no automation on the track... cubase took the last automation info before the cursor to restore the automation to the right value at this time of the project...
This is no longer the case.. and due to that the only way to have automation read faithfully is to play always the song from the begining of the project... (time 0, where cubase writes the initial data for every automated parametter....
Totaly unusable..

here is the video I made where you can see if I move in a blank space where the volume would normaly change due to the automation surounding.. it doesn't.. it does only if I click a region where there is automation data..

https://youtu.be/uhCsmUU49QU

can anyone confirm this problem ??

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:25 pm
by J-S-Q
I would actually consider it FIXED now (and broken in previous versions)!

I never understood what use this feature was with the old setup. How were you making use of it?

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:49 pm
by HughH
J-S-Q wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:25 pm
I would actually consider it FIXED now (and broken in previous versions)!

I never understood what use this feature was with the old setup. How were you making use of it?
Has it been fixed!!??

Damn.
You and I have both gone on forever here about the uselessness of VT the way it was.

Must try it soon.
Hugh

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:57 pm
by J-S-Q
HughH wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:49 pm
J-S-Q wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:25 pm
I would actually consider it FIXED now (and broken in previous versions)!

I never understood what use this feature was with the old setup. How were you making use of it?
Has it been fixed!!??

Damn.
You and I have both gone on forever here about the uselessness of VT the way it was.

Must try it soon.
Hugh
Haha. Yes, it does appear to have been 'fixed' in 9.5 -you can now move the cursor to a 'virgin' area or cycle round the locators without your automation parameters jumping to a new position.

Still, I am curious about how the OP was using the old setup because I've never managed to figure out any possible use for it.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:11 pm
by entoine
well, good luck with the actual setup !!!

the point of virgin territory is not to be bothered with automation next in time in the project when writing automation.. you write automation, then it stays on the value until there is new one

when you jump in a « virgin territory », cubase read the last point of automation on the track so that it reflects the value you wanted. In addition to that when you start writing automation on a track that as no automation, cubase writes a the very begining of the project, the value from where you start, because imagine you’re ok with the volume you made until the chorus.. so on the chorus you engage automtion writing, on the chorus you write a change.. now when, you jump before the chorus, where there is no data, to restore the volume of the verse you were ok with, it reads the volume cubase has written on the begginning of the project. it worked well.
you see??? what the point writing automation if it read false?? as it is now with 9.5 ?? cubase no longer read previous automation, so when you move in time your values are totaly wrong !!! the only way to have them right is now playing always from the very begining every time... good luck with that!!! :D

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:24 pm
by Romantique Tp
You can just use a straight line for that though, no need to use virgin territories in that case.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:36 pm
by entoine
well if use a straight line, then when you write automation, as soon as you release the fader, it return to the line, or in another mode it continues even if you release it and overwrites all next automation..
I really have dificulties to understand your use of virgin territories.. can you explain it to me ??

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:34 pm
by eli_lilly
Isn't entoine looking for "touch" automation mode? I'm interested in this because I just used automation heavily for the first time and I did suffer from the issue of wanting automation events to chase and not knowing how to enable it. Whenever I restarted playback from the middle, the levels would be at the last automation value that was played until the next automation event was hit. I know drawing a line (which is essentially adding automation through the whole track) would work, but there seems to be so many automation settings you'd think one would do chasing.

-E

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:19 am
by entoine
Hi, well, before cubase 9.5, cubase was « chasing » correctly the automation, and if I understand correctly what you are saying, you experience the same problem than me. Touch mode is an other thing, nothing to do with virgin territories problem, nor is it a solution to the problem I mentioned.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:48 am
by Weasel
I think the problem the OP is experiencing is because 9.5 defaults with “Use Virgin Territory” checked on in the Automation panel’s Preferences menu when initially reading Projects created in 9.0. Click it off and I think it will behave as expected (pre-9.5). Personally, it comes off like a bug to me.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:13 pm
by eli_lilly
Weasel wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:48 am
I think the problem the OP is experiencing is because 9.5 defaults with “Use Virgin Territory” checked on in the Automation panel’s Preferences menu when initially reading Projects created in 9.0. Click it off and I think it will behave as expected (pre-9.5). Personally, it comes off like a bug to me.
Thanks, that may be my issue. I'll check the setting.

-E

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:50 pm
by entoine
no this is not my problem, as I want to use this mode, my problem is that this mode is broken since cubase 9.5 update...

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:29 pm
by Winter Rat
entoine wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:50 pm
no this is not my problem, as I want to use this mode, my problem is that this mode is broken since cubase 9.5 update...
You're wrong this time mate, I'm afraid.
Virgin=empty. So if you put your play head into a virgin territory and see automation value changes it means that that place is not empty, it means that gaps between your automation "islands" are filled already and command "Fill Gaps on selected tracks" is nothing more than just a visualization of the existing lines.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:42 pm
by entoine
You're wrong this time mate, I'm afraid.
Virgin=empty. So if you put your play head into a virgin territory and see automation value changes it means that that place is not empty, it means that gaps between your automation "islands" are filled already and command "Fill Gaps on selected tracks" is nothing more than just a visualization of the existing lines.
Hi, Sorry but YOU're wrong. this is not how virgin territories works. I've worked with it several years already.
Here is a reply from an other member on the same subject on an other post...
PeterGx wrote
There are two things to consider about virgin territory.

First, Steinberg implementation of virgin territory is correct. If you look into big digital consoles like Ams Neve Encore or Euphonix System 5, those automation systems work exactly like that. If no automation is written in virgin territory it does not mean there will be no return value for a fader at that point. Usually the automation system looks backwards for the last written value, and if it finds none it looks forwards.

The other question is if Steinberg implementation is the most appropriate for a DAW, which I don't think it is. Steinberg just copied those linear automation systems, but automation workflow in digital consoles is a bit different. They don't have automation in graphical form which you can easily manipulate like you can in Nuendo. So I think MattiasNYC is correct, even if I don't agree that Nuendo virgin territory is flawed.

I would like Nuendo to go along Harrison, the third big name in digital film consoles. Harrison developed Mixbus DAW automation and they apparently have knowledge about both types of automation systems. I wonder what happened to Yamaha, Steinberg, and Harrison Strategic Alliance from 2015.

There is little I could not agree with Ben Harrison:
http://mixbus.harrisonconsoles.com/foru ... -5269.html
so I know what I'm saying when I say it is broken and that it doesn't make any sense how it is now as the "virgin territory" as you believe it is is completly unusable... Drives me mad that there is more people to say I'm wrong as it seems they never ever have used it not before and it seems neither now...

and all of you who says I'm wrong... why the Hell, if you're right, is cubase writing an automation value at the very begining of the project when you start writing automation on a track??? if you want a "virgin territory" in which cubase doesn't recall any value, what would be the point of that?? huh ??

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:29 pm
by Winter Rat
Ok. I give up. It's broken.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:10 pm
by Puma0382
entoine wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:42 pm
and all of you who says I'm wrong... why the Hell, if you're right, is cubase writing an automation value at the very begining of the project when you start writing automation on a track??? if you want a "virgin territory" in which cubase doesn't recall any value, what would be the point of that?? huh ??
It doesn't if you tick 'Use Virgin Territory' from the automation panel's settings - I just tried it on a completely automation free track (C9.5). Automation is written only where I entered it (I was using the mouse to 'draw in' values).

And I'm sorry @entoine, I have to agree with others here; I'd say they've now fixed VT automation properly. You've unfortunately been led a merry dance in previous editions of Cubase and have got used to/enjoyed what has been a mistake/accident in this behaviour, on SB's part.

I like how it works now.

(PS:- the 'Harrison' link is broken in that quote you posted above...)

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:57 pm
by entoine
LOL you see, there's is people who don't draw automation with the mouse, and this is for those people "virgin territories" make a great deal of difference... try to write automation moving your fader and you'll see...

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:01 pm
by entoine
to spare you some time... I filmed it... https://youtu.be/WGCCiqs2y3k

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:10 pm
by peakae
So VT finally became useful, great.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:24 pm
by entoine
usefull for folks using mouse to draw automation... not for folks with a controler using virgin territories as they are supposed to work.... pff... is there nobody using a controller like euphonix mc mix here ?? making moves with faders, not with mouse ?? making moves from one second.. not drawing on the whole section while cubase is stopped ? .... Some day I will make a video showing you all the benefits of the virgin territories when you work with a controller... for now I don't have much time.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:24 pm
by entoine
usefull for folks using mouse to draw automation... not for folks with a controler using virgin territories as they are supposed to work.... pff... is there nobody using a controller like euphonix mc mix here ?? making moves with faders, not with mouse ?? making moves from one second.. not drawing on the whole section while cubase is stopped ? .... Some day I will make a video showing you all the benefits of the virgin territories when you work with a controller... for now I don't have much time.

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:41 pm
by entoine
(PS:- the 'Harrison' link is broken in that quote you posted above...)
here it is http://mixbus.harrisonconsoles.com/foru ... -5269.html

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:59 pm
by entoine
to help you all understand what is a virgin territory... it is a territory where there you didn't write automation (with fader)... so it is a territory where the cubase will keep the last value played, it is a territory where you didn't make any change, so cubase won't return to any value after that one, nore will draw an acending line or descending line, beetween your last value and the next one, because it isn't what you did. But when you had increased a level and released the fader (removing your finger from it), so it stops writing, you have a virgin territories, until your next writing. But to recall the right value when moving, cubase read the last value on the track at the position you're at... it's logical... Virgin territories are not boundaries where no automation is read, it is just a "I haven't wrote anything more than my last value" .... I don't really expect you to understand even with this explanation.... because after all, you didn't catch it in years ...

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:31 am
by J-S-Q
entoine wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:41 pm
(PS:- the 'Harrison' link is broken in that quote you posted above...)
here it is http://mixbus.harrisonconsoles.com/foru ... -5269.html
In fact, the Harrison product manager in that thread is describing how Harrison Virign Territories work neither like Cubase 9 OR Cubase 9.5. Just goes to show, there is no right or wrong. However it seems very clear from forum posts on this subject that ALMOST everyone prefers the new 9.5 implementation so it's probably time to get used to it! :)

And by the way, I also use an Avid DAW controller and I much prefer the new VT (the old one being completely useless for me).

Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:02 pm
by entoine
Lol, I give up. I wait Steinberg to aknowlege they have broken it, and a fix. I can’t continue argument with people who doesn’t know what they are they are talking about who never used it when it was working correctly. As I say and you never answered me.. why is cubase writing a start even on the begining of a project when you write automation in the middle, if it isn’t to recall this value correctly when jumping in the virgin territory between the start and the moment you started writing automation ?? why?? and don’t answer me that when you draw automation with the mouse it doesn’t place a « start event »... if you make all with a mouse you don’t need virgin territories.