automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by entoine » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:10 pm

I was this morning on skype with another french member, as you, he didn’t understood virgin territories as he never used it and had difficulties to understand its operation mode, and for him it was logical that cubase didn’t recall the values when jumping in blank territories.. so I took time to explain him, with a session and a screen sharing.. showing him how you work with that, he understood, finally, and agreed it was now broken.. and he understood how this was before.. it was only possible because he thought that if I was happy with it for years, maybe it is that is was fine before, and it was him who didn’t understood as he never took time to use « virgin territories » (working exclusively with a mouse).. and he wanted to understand and help to confirm the bug.. you, you’re happy with the bug.. Lol

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by prokletije » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am

Yes, Virgin Territory in 9.5 IS BROKEN. Simple test: automate a fadeout at the end of the project. Jump to start and start play. Even worse, exporting also ignores the first (automatically added) terminated point as well as all other terminated points so you get a silent exported file until first written automation point shows up which is the start of the fadeout. It isn't supposed to work this way and "fill gaps" is a workaround that completely defeats the point of virgin territory.

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by entoine » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:42 pm

thanks prokletije, I’m happy to see someone who understands...

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by entoine » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:07 pm

problem not solved in 9.5.10 ....

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by beatpete » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:47 pm

Virgin Territories is DEFINITELY BROKEN in 9.5 (and 9.5.10). Nothing is written at the beginning of the project so, as a previous poster explained, if you go beyond the fade out at the end of the song and then start at the beginning, the master fader is off (same thing ANYWHERE in the project). I just spent an embarrassing couple of hours with a client because of this. I had to turn "Virgin Territories" off and start all over. I can sort of see a point of having it this way (automation is only affected to the written area) but It's of no use to me. At least, if this is the new format, have a preference to go back to the old format. Like entoine I've been using VT for years with no issues. I guess it's back to 9.0.30 for mixing for now...
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by Weasel » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:47 pm

Is “Use Virgin Territory” behavior broken in 9.5? I am now convinced it is.

There is an observable difference between how “Use Virgin Territory” behaves, depending on what technique you use to enter automation data. This should not happen. The results should be consistent, regardless of the writing method chosen.

Steps to duplicate:

Create a new Project or use a Project that hasn't used any automation yet.

1. Start by confirming that “Use VirginTerritory” is activated in the Automation panel.

2. In this example, select your Project’s master output fader.

3. Somewhere near the end of the song, click the Write button.

4. You’re going to write a fade out on the master output track….but, do not write the fade with the mouse directly on the automation lane while stopped. Instead, click Play and with the mouse, grab the Mixer’s output fader and make a fade.

5. Stop and click/deactivate Write. You should see the fade automation curve you just recorded. It should not be connected back to the beginning of the song, where there should be a single automation node at your output fader’s initial level at bar 0.

This is the way “Use Virgin Territory” is supposed to create automation moves in areas with no automation curves….however:

6. Back up to somewhere near the very end of the fade. Hit play for a second and Stop. Roll forward to a bar or two in front of the fade and hit Play. You will hear playback at the level you last stopped at.

This is what is broken in 9.5.10.: With “Use Virgin Territory” activated, automation created by using Mixer faders or external controllers tied to the fader(s), automation does not chase to the nearest last known node in unwritten (virgin) areas. This worked perfectly in 9.0. In my opinion, it is definitely broken in 9.5.

For those of you wondering, if you do the same exact thing, but you mouse-draw the fade directly onto the automation lane while stopped, you will see the beginning of the fade tied all the way back to bar 0’s starting level and everything should work as expected as you locate to different areas around the song.

There is an observable difference between how “Use Virgin Territory” works, depending on what technique you use to enter the data. In my opinion, this should not happen. Entry results should be consistent, regardless of the writing method you choose.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by J-S-Q » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:58 pm

Weasel wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:47 pm
For those of you wondering, if you do the same exact thing, but you mouse-draw the fade directly onto the automation lane while stopped, you will see the beginning of the fade tied all the way back to bar 0’s starting level and everything should work as expected as you locate to different areas around the song.

There is an observable difference between how “Use Virgin Territory” works, depending on what technique you use to enter the data. In my opinion, this should not happen. Entry results should be consistent, regardless of the writing method you choose.
Strangely, I do not see this difference. Whether I write automation by dragging a fader with the mouse, moving a fader on my Eucon controller, or drawing a fade in the automation lane, the result is identical. I get a single terminated automation node at the start of the project, and then the fade that I have written. This is as I would expect.

Here is the issue I see with the current setup:

If you have just a single automation node that is terminated, then it will have no effect on the fader. I wouldn't say this is a bug necessarily. It is a design choice -but I definitely think it is a bad choice.

However here is what I WOULD say is a bug (albeit a relatively minor one): If you have two nodes extremely close together, where the first is not terminated and the second is, the fader will not respond. From my very brief testing, if the nodes are less than around 50ms apart, the fader will not respond.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by J-S-Q » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:05 pm

beatpete wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:47 pm
Virgin Territories is DEFINITELY BROKEN in 9.5 (and 9.5.10). Nothing is written at the beginning of the project so, as a previous poster explained, if you go beyond the fade out at the end of the song and then start at the beginning, the master fader is off (same thing ANYWHERE in the project). I just spent an embarrassing couple of hours with a client because of this. I had to turn "Virgin Territories" off and start all over. I can sort of see a point of having it this way (automation is only affected to the written area) but It's of no use to me. At least, if this is the new format, have a preference to go back to the old format. Like entoine I've been using VT for years with no issues. I guess it's back to 9.0.30 for mixing for now...
This is explained by my previous post:

If you have a single automation node that is terminated (which is what is automatically written at the start of the project when you use Virgin Territories) the fader will not respond to this. It can very charitably be described as a design choice rather than 'Broken' but seems an extremely poor choice.

This is not really the issue that was highlighted at the start of the thread though.... The main complaint seemed to be that when you locate in a 'virgin territory' the automation should still chase the last automation event even if the playhead has not passed the event. That was how it was in v9 and that is what I would consider 'broken'. If you want that to happen, just disable Virgin Territories and use normal automation.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by Weasel » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:39 pm

J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:58 pm
Strangely, I do not see this difference. Whether I write automation by dragging a fader with the mouse, moving a fader on my Eucon controller, or drawing a fade in the automation lane, the result is identical. I get a single terminated automation node at the start of the project, and then the fade that I have written. This is as I would expect.
Hmmm. This could be strictly a Mac issue that I'm seeing. What I wrote is what occurs on my rig.

And yes, I figured out what to do about it, particularly Projects that were done much earlier in 9.0 then moved into 9.5... still, I think there is enough oddness going on (particularly chasing) between the two versions that suggests this is something Steinberg needs to weigh in on...one way or the other. All I can do is report what I'm seeing on my system.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by beatpete » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:45 am

J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:05 pm
beatpete wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:47 pm
Virgin Territories is DEFINITELY BROKEN in 9.5 (and 9.5.10). Nothing is written at the beginning of the project so, as a previous poster explained, if you go beyond the fade out at the end of the song and then start at the beginning, the master fader is off (same thing ANYWHERE in the project). I just spent an embarrassing couple of hours with a client because of this. I had to turn "Virgin Territories" off and start all over. I can sort of see a point of having it this way (automation is only affected to the written area) but It's of no use to me. At least, if this is the new format, have a preference to go back to the old format. Like entoine I've been using VT for years with no issues. I guess it's back to 9.0.30 for mixing for now...
This is explained by my previous post:

If you have a single automation node that is terminated (which is what is automatically written at the start of the project when you use Virgin Territories) the fader will not respond to this. It can very charitably be described as a design choice rather than 'Broken' but seems an extremely poor choice.

I call this broken, it's useless, why even draw it at the beginning then?

This is not really the issue that was highlighted at the start of the thread though.... The main complaint seemed to be that when you locate in a 'virgin territory' the automation should still chase the last automation event even if the playhead has not passed the event. That was how it was in v9 and that is what I would consider 'broken'. If you want that to happen, just disable Virgin Territories and use normal automation.

It should chase the last automation event ALWAYS! "just disable Virgin Territories and use normal automation" is a cop out, IT WORKS PERFECTLY in 9.030 (and ever since it's inceptrion).
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by J-S-Q » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:57 am

beatpete wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:45 am
J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:05 pm
beatpete wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:47 pm
Virgin Territories is DEFINITELY BROKEN in 9.5 (and 9.5.10). Nothing is written at the beginning of the project so, as a previous poster explained, if you go beyond the fade out at the end of the song and then start at the beginning, the master fader is off (same thing ANYWHERE in the project). I just spent an embarrassing couple of hours with a client because of this. I had to turn "Virgin Territories" off and start all over. I can sort of see a point of having it this way (automation is only affected to the written area) but It's of no use to me. At least, if this is the new format, have a preference to go back to the old format. Like entoine I've been using VT for years with no issues. I guess it's back to 9.0.30 for mixing for now...
This is explained by my previous post:

If you have a single automation node that is terminated (which is what is automatically written at the start of the project when you use Virgin Territories) the fader will not respond to this. It can very charitably be described as a design choice rather than 'Broken' but seems an extremely poor choice.

I call this broken, it's useless, why even draw it at the beginning then?
Well, call it broken, call it a bug, call it a poor design choice, call it what you like... I agree with you that it should be changed.
beatpete wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:45 am
J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:05 pm

This is not really the issue that was highlighted at the start of the thread though.... The main complaint seemed to be that when you locate in a 'virgin territory' the automation should still chase the last automation event even if the playhead has not passed the event. That was how it was in v9 and that is what I would consider 'broken'. If you want that to happen, just disable Virgin Territories and use normal automation.

It should chase the last automation event ALWAYS! "just disable Virgin Territories and use normal automation" is a cop out, IT WORKS PERFECTLY in 9.030 (and ever since it's inceptrion).
On this point I completely disagree with you.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by entoine » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:48 pm

wow, it seems even with explaining a thousand times how "virgin territories" works, some don't want to understand... even if the people explaining it take time to explain it, and have used it for years...
Steinberg !!!??? any word on this issue?? ... it's definitely broken and it would be great to hear this is an issue Steinberg is aware of, and that it is on the list of bugs to be adressed in a next update...

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by beatpete » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:37 pm

entoine wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:48 pm

Steinberg !!!??? any word on this issue?? ... it's definitely broken and it would be great to hear this is an issue Steinberg is aware of, and that it is on the list of bugs to be adressed in a next update...
Agreed, I did start an issue report on the issues page. I’ve gone back to 9.0.30 until this is addressed.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:56 am

Hello,

Happy New Year to you all.

Development informed me that this indeed seems to be an unintended change and we will probably go back to the old behavior in the C9.5.20 update (I take 'probably' as 'if we make it in time' / 'if no unexpected problems pop up'). Internal ref. number is [CAN-12873].

I will post again when I have some more information. Sorry for the inconvenience!
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by entoine » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:56 pm

thanks a lot for the update 🙂. And happy new year to you too !

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by hesca116 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:35 pm

So, when will this 9.5.2 be released?

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by beatpete » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:53 pm

I sure hope so because I'm on 9.0.30 until it's fixed.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by Weasel » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:45 pm

Development informed me that this indeed seems to be an unintended change and we will probably go back to the old behavior in the C9.5.20 update (I take 'probably' as 'if we make it in time' / 'if no unexpected problems pop up'). Internal ref. number is [CAN-12873].
Thank you for looking into this and posting some information, Fabio. Have a Happy New Year.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by HughH » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:22 pm

I MUST jump in here.

For my way of working Virgin Territory is functioning as it should NOW.
(Note: Not referring to the "Draw" and "Close Nodes" issues mentioned. Haven't tested that)

A Brief Explanation:
Virgin Territory should work such that when you write some automation in one section of a project, working in any other section acts like there is NO automation written anywhere. Thus the word "Virgin".

A Simple Working Example:
1. A Project with, lets say, 4 sections.
A, B, C and D.
2. Using Virgin Territory, I write some automation to section D (for this example I'm using touch) and then disable "Write".
3. Now I move to section B.
4. I hit play and start tweaking parameters.
5. When I reach the end of Section B I use any method to return to the start of B (stop and drag the cursor back, Loop B, Set a marker at the start of B, etc) and continue tweaking.
6. When I'm happy with my B tweaks I can write the automation using whatever method.

Done.

This Example using the Old (Flawed, IMHO) functionality:
Everything is fine up to step 5.
When, in step 5, I move the cursor back to the start of B all my tweaks are lost.
Any values I adjusted Section B are now returned to the values at the start of D!

I would call this functionality "Half Virgin".
That is, yes, when you are PLAYING the Track in a Virgin Territory you CAN move values freely.
But as soon as you jump the cursor to another (also Virgin) position (using ANY method, as explained above) you lose any tweaks.
Useless. I might as well NOT be using VT and just disable "Read".

In fact, despite reading this entire thread, and having many discussions when the Function was first introduced, I still don't understand it's use (in original form).
Read a few posts here: viewtopic.php?f=240&t=92936&p=566309&hi ... in#p517212
and you'll get the idea. Fredo states an excellent example of how it should work - except it doesn't work that way - well, kinda HALF works that way (Half Virgin) as MattiasNYC points out.

I would be curious to hear - in simple, clear terms - how someone that liked the old function would handle my example above.

BUT!! A SOLUTION to please all!!

Make "Chase Last Value using Virgin Territories" a preference!
Yes? I mean, if Steinberg must change things back to the old useless way. :shock:

Thoughts?

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by beatpete » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:54 pm

OK when you go to B (seeing as how you wrote automation in D you must me in automation mode) instead of "tweaking" just write automation, now you have no problem (you can always erase automation).The way VT used to work was perfect for me (and a lot of others)

Fredo's example:
"You want to start writing automation in the middle of a project. You need a fade in and fade out on an event of -say- 5 seconds.
When doing this in regular automation mode, any automation before your fade in will be @ infinity (fade in) and the automation after your event will also be @ infinity. (fade out)
This means that your tracks is actually dead. No volume."

Except that the way VT used to be, as soon as you write automation anywhere, a node is added to the beginning with the current level so actually, in Fredo's example it would work fine.

I understand you don't see a reason to use it but those of us who do, need it back!
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:23 pm

Hugh, I agree with you and deem the behaviour correct now, be the change wanted or not.
VT is quite a special concept and subject to debate, as often occurs with functions that come from Nuendo. These functions actually get adapted to the more music-oriented Cubase user-base... see VCA.

I could make examples of both the old and new behaviour being annoying in specific (music production) conditions - i.e. with the current behaviour, if I fade out the drums at the end of a song and re-locate in the chorus section where no automation is written, they'll play way too low. I personally don't even see the point in using VT in this instance (but it is the kind of use-case that annoys people right now). A chasing preference would surely be best.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by beatpete » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:59 pm

Fabio:
No offence, but it's worked the old way since it's inception and those who use it loved it that way. A preference would be fine but until that happens, please see if it can be returned the way it's been for the last few Cubase versions.
I've been using VT for years and now have to mix on 9.0.30 because of this.
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by entoine » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:08 am

Maybe this is a good time, after repairing virgin territories, to add a new thing in automation I would call, « automation frontiers » or « automation separators » which would be boundaries defining « territories » where no automation is chased in a previous territory nor in a territory after the one you are working, as if you had multiple projects in one project.. you have automation in territory A, you jump in territory B, you can adjust parameters as if you where in a new project with no automation and write automation if you want to, and with virgin territories in it if you want to (automation would be chased in the territory you are only). I think this would be a way which would content all of us.. having virgin territories as there were which is a mode of automation, and boundaries to separate different section of a project, like songs of a live concert for example... and a extraordinary thing would be to have the possibility to set the lengh of the boudary, automation « crossfading » from end of automation of territory A to start of automation of territory B according to the time covered by the boudary. It would be so awsome.

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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by Maxx McGee » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:31 pm

It is definitely broken! Also the endpoint doesn't work, you don't get the right endvalue of an automation part. Even worse it's quite random and seems to lack behind the curve. In fast changes you get rediculously different values each time you play back. Completely broken automation with virgin territory. I compared it directly with Cubase 9.0, same curve, same project and it works 100%. 9.5 is a big disappointment!
This has to be fixed, you can't work with it.

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Weasel
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Re: automation using "virgin territory" seems broken.. I made a video of the problem

Post by Weasel » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:44 pm

Well....the 9.5.40 update seems to have solved the problem of "not chasing" in the gaps. By the looks of it, that particular functionality has been restored back to 9.0 behavior.
DualQuadCore 2.66 Nehalem/32gbRAM-OSX 10.12.5/C9.5.30 • MOTU 424e/2408MkIII • 2-MIDI Express 128's ••• DualCore 2.8 iMac/4gbRAM-OSX 10.10.5/C9.0.20 • MOTU/ULmk3 ••• D8B/V5.1

Oh.....so this is the Cornfield?....

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