64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post general topics related to Cubase Pro 9, Cubase Artist 9 and Cubase Elements 9 here.
JohnFerraris
New Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:52 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by JohnFerraris » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:57 pm

If anyone can show empirically (in a reasonable setup outside of bizarre edge cases) an audible difference (or even a measurable difference above -120dB) then I will eat my hat.

User avatar
MixterRader
New Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:54 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by MixterRader » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:53 pm

Well, it seems that none of my Waves plugins will do 64 bit processing and I do use some on my master bus.
Cubase Elements 9.5
Windows 10 64-bit
Intel i7-7700K 4.20 GHZ
16 GB ram
RME Hammerfall HDSP 9632 + Totalmix

My Website | My Facebook Page | My Soundcloud Page

User avatar
Raphie
Senior Member
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Raphie » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:48 pm

Depends on how old your waves are? Since V9 they are 64bit
Analogue Mastering
MSI raider X99 - Intel i7 6800k - MSI Gaming X 1070GTX 8GB - OCZ RD400 nvme SSD - 16GB DDR4-3000
Windows 10 x64 up to date - Cubase Pro 9.5x - Wavelab Pro 9.5x
RME MadiFX and racks full of outboard

Everything you need to know about remote control editors

User avatar
HughH
Member
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:53 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by HughH » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:29 pm

Raphie wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:48 pm
Depends on how old your waves are? Since V9 they are 64bit
This is interesting.

I have Waves v 9 which claim to be 64 bit.
They are also VST3.

However, when you select "Show 64 Bit Plugins only" in the Plugin Manager no Waves are shown . . .

??

Hugh
Cubase Pro 9.5 64 Bit
i7 5820 Asus x99 Deluxe 64 Gig Win 10 Home (1703), Dual Monitors
i7 920 Asus P6T 12G Win 7 Slave Machine #1
i7 Sony VAIO Laptop 8G Win 7 Slave#2/Remote Machine
MCU Pro plus 2 Extenders (24 Chn)
X-Touch Compact for various stuff
Blackmagic Decklink Studio w/27" Monitor
VEP6
RME Digiface PCIe for All
UR22 for portability

User avatar
Raphie
Senior Member
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Raphie » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:39 pm

Yes, you don’t see VST3 in your list as they are all compatible by default
Analogue Mastering
MSI raider X99 - Intel i7 6800k - MSI Gaming X 1070GTX 8GB - OCZ RD400 nvme SSD - 16GB DDR4-3000
Windows 10 x64 up to date - Cubase Pro 9.5x - Wavelab Pro 9.5x
RME MadiFX and racks full of outboard

Everything you need to know about remote control editors

digitalson
Member
Posts: 299
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:34 am
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by digitalson » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:53 pm

There would be no sound difference cause cubase 9 was also 64 bit engine it’s the down sampling that the new setting does .and it will probably lower cpu usage cause the mixer will do less calculations.....fredo explains it well
i7 ,64gb 1866 mem x79 chipset, ssd os,4 x ssd drives raid 0 motu pci 96 ins and outs @96k for external gear
tons of vintage outboard gear 3 monitors and 42" LCD for spotting to film
Windows 7 pro 64 sp1
Gtx 780 ,all liquid cooled CPU overclocked to 4 ghz

User avatar
Winter Rat
Member
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:10 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Winter Rat » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:13 pm

Raphie wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:39 pm
Yes, you don’t see VST3 in your list as they are all compatible by default
This list shows all VST3 Steinberg plug-ins, so if Waves can do 64bits they must be in that list either.
Cubase 9.5
Win 8.1, Intel Core i7-4770, Gigabyte GA-Z87X-D3H, 16 GB, GeForce GTX 1050.

Carvin Man
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:47 am
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Carvin Man » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm

Waves do NOT 64 bit floating point internal processing...

User avatar
Raphie
Senior Member
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Raphie » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:42 pm

Yes they do, even the L1 is double precission according to it’s manual
Analogue Mastering
MSI raider X99 - Intel i7 6800k - MSI Gaming X 1070GTX 8GB - OCZ RD400 nvme SSD - 16GB DDR4-3000
Windows 10 x64 up to date - Cubase Pro 9.5x - Wavelab Pro 9.5x
RME MadiFX and racks full of outboard

Everything you need to know about remote control editors

valsolim
Junior Member
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:54 pm
Location: Brno, Czechia
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by valsolim » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 pm

Carvin Man wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm
Waves do NOT 64 bit floating point internal processing...
Raphie wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:42 pm
Yes they do, even the L1 is double precission according to it’s manual
Hey, guys, I actually think that you both could be right! :) There are two distinct things which have to be distinguished:

1. whether a plugin uses 64-bit floating point in (a part of) its internal processing and
2. whether the same plugin accepts 64-bit samples on its input/output.

Cubase knows and reports the latter (64-bit floating point I/O compatibility), however, in no way it can look inside of the plugin, which is the first aspect. It seems that Waves are not the only vendor who applies 64-bit processing only on necessary places but who does not allow 64-bit I/O since the rest of their audio chain is actually 32-bit. Another example is MeldaProduction: I had a discussion with Vojtech on this topic over at KVR Audio (https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8&t=494909).

Best regards
--
Miloslav
Cubase Pro 9.5, WaveLab Pro 9.5, HALion 6, Windows 10, Plogue Bidule, Cognitone Synfire, Celemony Melodyne, MeldaProduction, ToneBoosters, Voxengo, Steinberg MR816csx, Presonus DigiMax FS, ART HeadAmp 6 Pro, IK Multimedia ARC 2, Adam Audio A7X + Sub10, AKG K271 mkII, TC Electronic Konnekt 24D, Steinberg UR22, Audix D2, D4, D6, i5, ADX-51, Sennheiser e614, 2x Shure SM137, Røde NT1-A, DPA 4099 S/U, Roland FC-300, Steinberg CC121, Yamaha KX49

User avatar
Raphie
Senior Member
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Raphie » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:41 pm

Yes you are right, those are 2 different things. My understanding from Steinberg was that all VST3 x64 plugins support double precission and communicate on 64bit wordlength by definition as it’s part of the standard. Hence VST3 plugins do not show in the capable list at all. But I might have understood this wrong.
Analogue Mastering
MSI raider X99 - Intel i7 6800k - MSI Gaming X 1070GTX 8GB - OCZ RD400 nvme SSD - 16GB DDR4-3000
Windows 10 x64 up to date - Cubase Pro 9.5x - Wavelab Pro 9.5x
RME MadiFX and racks full of outboard

Everything you need to know about remote control editors

Carvin Man
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:47 am
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Carvin Man » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:52 pm

valsolim wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 pm
Carvin Man wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm
Waves do NOT 64 bit floating point internal processing...
Raphie wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:42 pm
Yes they do, even the L1 is double precission according to it’s manual
Hey, guys, I actually think that you both could be right! :) There are two distinct things which have to be distinguished:

1. whether a plugin uses 64-bit floating point in (a part of) its internal processing and
2. whether the same plugin accepts 64-bit samples on its input/output.

Cubase knows and reports the latter (64-bit floating point I/O compatibility), however, in no way it can look inside of the plugin, which is the first aspect. It seems that Waves are not the only vendor who applies 64-bit processing only on necessary places but who does not allow 64-bit I/O since the rest of their audio chain is actually 32-bit. Another example is MeldaProduction: I had a discussion with Vojtech on this topic over at KVR Audio (https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8&t=494909).

Best regards
--
Miloslav
Thanks.... What I tried to say ;)

valsolim
Junior Member
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:54 pm
Location: Brno, Czechia
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by valsolim » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:20 am

Raphie wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:41 pm
Yes you are right, those are 2 different things. My understanding from Steinberg was that all VST3 x64 plugins support double precission and communicate on 64bit wordlength by definition as it’s part of the standard. Hence VST3 plugins do not show in the capable list at all. But I might have understood this wrong.
Both VST3 x64 as well as VST2 x64 plugins (and applications in general) use 64-bit instructions for memory addressing - which is a pure IT matter, nothing to do with the sample depth. Generally speaking, x64 application/plugin can process 32-bit audio samples as well as 64-bit audio samples. Likewise, even x32 application/plugin could process 32-bit audio samples as well as 64-bit samples. But there is yet another thing and this is the interface between a host and a plugin which is given by the VST standard. VST2 was prepared only for 32-bit samples I/O between a host and a plugin. Therefore, while a VST2 plugin actually can utilize 64-bit floating point processing internally (since for some DSP tasks the precision really matters), for the output to DAW it has to convert the 64-bit samples back into 32-bit samples (even if it is a VST2 x64 plugin). On the other hand, a VST3 plugin has the option to accept 64-bit samples on its input and output. But the 64-bit floating point I/O is optional, not mandatory in the VST3 standard. A plugin vendor has to enable this capability.

In my opinion, 64-bit floating point audio engine implemented on the host side (DAW) could bring theoretical benefits if the signal path is completely 64-bit from start to end. However, if your plugins do not accept 64-bit samples on their I/O then the DAW has to perform multiple 32<->64 conversions on each plugin boundary and, consequently, the whole point of the 64-bit DAW engine fades away.

--
Miloslav
Cubase Pro 9.5, WaveLab Pro 9.5, HALion 6, Windows 10, Plogue Bidule, Cognitone Synfire, Celemony Melodyne, MeldaProduction, ToneBoosters, Voxengo, Steinberg MR816csx, Presonus DigiMax FS, ART HeadAmp 6 Pro, IK Multimedia ARC 2, Adam Audio A7X + Sub10, AKG K271 mkII, TC Electronic Konnekt 24D, Steinberg UR22, Audix D2, D4, D6, i5, ADX-51, Sennheiser e614, 2x Shure SM137, Røde NT1-A, DPA 4099 S/U, Roland FC-300, Steinberg CC121, Yamaha KX49

eightyeightkeys
Junior Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:01 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by eightyeightkeys » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:46 am

MixterRader wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:34 pm
Unfortunately, none of my Waves plugins seem to work at 64 bit.
Yep, me too. Waves plugs that were used in a 9.0.3 project are a no go in 9.5
eightyeightkeys
Asus G752 VW-DH71, i76700HQ, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 2 SSD's, Windows 10 Home

alexis
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 4248
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:55 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by alexis » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:33 am

eightyeightkeys wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:46 am
MixterRader wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:34 pm
Unfortunately, none of my Waves plugins seem to work at 64 bit.
Yep, me too. Waves plugs that were used in a 9.0.3 project are a no go in 9.5
Ouch! I'm not sure if I'm going to try the trial now, or wait for the first maintenance/fix update first.
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

User avatar
peakae
Senior Member
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:15 pm
Location: Bedroom
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by peakae » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:03 am

Huh? Waves should work, they just don’t take advantage of the 64Bit float engine.
What seems to be broken if the reports are right, is the external FX ping not responding when in 64Bit float mode.
Currently I can’t test as I am rebuilding my rack.
Cubase Pro 9.5, Wavelab Elements 9, I7 3770K , win10x64, 16Gb Ram, RME Raydat, Steinberg MR816x, Motu 828mkII, Behringer ADA8200, Yamaha moXF6, Steinberg UR242, Yamaha THR 10, Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus, CMC TP, CMC CH.

User avatar
Raphie
Senior Member
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Raphie » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:41 am

current Waves works fine, just make sure u use the latest version
Analogue Mastering
MSI raider X99 - Intel i7 6800k - MSI Gaming X 1070GTX 8GB - OCZ RD400 nvme SSD - 16GB DDR4-3000
Windows 10 x64 up to date - Cubase Pro 9.5x - Wavelab Pro 9.5x
RME MadiFX and racks full of outboard

Everything you need to know about remote control editors

eightyeightkeys
Junior Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:01 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by eightyeightkeys » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:28 pm

Raphie wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:41 am
current Waves works fine, just make sure u use the latest version
O.K. Raphie...will try updating.
The "symptom"is that the channel meter on the tracks with the offending Waves plugs will show overload into the red. Playback is muted on the track and the Waves plug will not "release." The only option is to quit. At least, this is what happened on my rig.
eightyeightkeys
Asus G752 VW-DH71, i76700HQ, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 2 SSD's, Windows 10 Home

ColinPark
Junior Member
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:58 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by ColinPark » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:49 am

I'm having some trouble with some Waves plugins, the CLA series. I get

Code: Select all

 Program Files (x86)\VSTPlugins\WavesShell-VST 9.91.dll
on the blacklist, but another version:

Code: Select all

 Prorgram Files\VSTPlugins\WavesShell-VST 9.91_x64.dll
that's not blacklisted. The Plugin manager tends to crash a lot.

I've had Program Files(x86)\VSTPlugins\ on my plugin path because I left some 64 bit VSTis there once. So I moved them to Program Files\VSTPlugins\ (which is where they belong) and eliminated Program Files(x86)\VSTPlugins\ from the search paths of plugin manager. Then restart C9.5. The Plugin Manager still crashes when updating plugin information, and CLA Bass/CLA Guitars/CLA Vocals still crash fail to load.
WavesError.png
(10.7 KiB) Not downloaded yet
I have not tried saving the project under another name. This happens if I start an empty project, add an audio track, then add an insert (CLA Bass). It happens with both 64 bit and 32 bit VST audio systems.

============== UPDATE ============

The problem was solved by Martan at Waves tech support, who responded within 10 minutes of my e-mail for help. :) Basically, it involved uninstalling and re-installing, but (I think) not using the easy install the 2nd time. Someone somewhere else on the forum had a similar experience. (t.ex. viewtopic.php?f=250&t=107846&p=692906&h ... es#p676152) The uninstall is a bit complex, the details were similar to KurtOzz' description. This success was with 64 bit VST audio.
Win 10 (64 bit), 3.5GHz i7-4770K, 32GB RAM, Sabertooth Z87, Samsung SSD 850 Pro 512GB, RME fireface UFX, Novation 61SL MkII keyboard controller, Yamaha HS7 monitors. Cubase Pro 9.5.10 [build 79], HALion Sonic 2, HALion Symphonic Orchestra, Dark Planet,

Sycraft
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:18 am
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Sycraft » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:54 am

Cons? None really. The only real con is a theoretical heavier system load, since you are talking double precision math instead of single precision. However modern CPUs are real, real good at DP math as a lot uses it. Likewise mixing is a very simply operation for a modern CPU, so you aren't spending much of your power there. So in theory maybe it drops the number of tracks you can have, in practice I doubt it.

Pros? Basically just a buffer against potential rounding errors. Single precision floating point, aka 32-bit, is done as an 8-bit exponent (the range) with a 24-bit significand (the precision). So that means it maintains 24-bits of precision over a wide range of volumes. This works great as we prevent clipping, prevent LSB loss, and maintain the output precision at all times... BUT there is the issue that we are going to be performing some math at the precision of export, which means rounding errors can creep in.

Realistically, this is not a big deal. If there's rounding errors in 1 or 2 LSB (or even 3 or 4) who really cares? It's not only below audibility, it is below the ability of converters to reproduce. Totally irrelevant to the enjoyment of the music. However, what if we could solve it so it was just totally a non-issue? With double precision, aka 64-it, we can. This gets us an 11-bit exponent with a 53-bit significand. Now we have WAAAAY more precision than we need. Rounding errors will be so low they will never, even in edge cases, be able to creep in to the final signal. It just solves any theoretical problem.

So it is not at all something I'd worry about, not something that is badly needed, but I turn it on because why not? My system is not hurting for power, and it just feature that makes sure that the math the computer is doing is never an issue to the results, which is as it should be.

blaueswunder
New Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by blaueswunder » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:05 am

has there anywhere posted a blindtest. i would like to liusten myself of the difference. havent bought yet the update.

User avatar
Steve Helstrip
Member
Posts: 610
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:23 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Steve Helstrip » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:34 am

To my ears, running a complex project (130+tracks) I'm hearing more openness and clarity in the mix. Maybe it's a placebo effects, but it was immediately noticeable when I switched the project I'd been working on for 3 weeks in 32-bit to 64-bit.
Hackintosh, 4790K / 4GHz, 16Gb, OSX10.12.6
MacBook Pro Retina (2015), i5, 8Gb, OSX10.12.6
Cubase Pro 9.0.30
Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.
UAD-2, Focusrite Saffire Pro 24
Cubase user since 1989!

http://www.thethrillseekers.co.uk
http://www.twitter.com/stevehelstrip
http://www.facebook.com/thrillseekersofficial

Manike
Member
Posts: 474
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by Manike » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:58 pm

Surely its easy enough to find out? Export the project with the 32bit engine. Reload and export the project with 64bit precision. Re-import and null test.
8-Core Trashcan Mac Pro : El-Capitan : Cubase9.5 : MOTU828x : Nektar P6 :
http://www.manikemusic.com

User avatar
peakae
Senior Member
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:15 pm
Location: Bedroom
Contact:

Re: 64-bit floating precision - pros/cons?

Post by peakae » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:15 pm

The problem posting Null tests is the music has to be without any copyright restrictions and not using any free floating LFO or other modulation FX that are not a 100% in sync.
Drum plugins have some human touch to them, varying the velocity and groove slightly every time, but never the same.
And all should be documented, supplying the project and resulting files, so everyone can try to recreate.
Better IMHO to do it for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.
The C9.5 Demo does not NULL, but I don't think it will even if exported using the same settings twice, have not bothered to try.
Cubase Pro 9.5, Wavelab Elements 9, I7 3770K , win10x64, 16Gb Ram, RME Raydat, Steinberg MR816x, Motu 828mkII, Behringer ADA8200, Yamaha moXF6, Steinberg UR242, Yamaha THR 10, Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus, CMC TP, CMC CH.

Post Reply

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lucatron, the bearpond and 15 guests