Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by PeppaPig » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:54 pm

sempondr wrote:
vinark wrote: Sorry no, the problem starts with 28 logical cores.
According to Steinberg the problem starts with more than 14 logical cores, not 28.
Yes, 14, as cubase starts 2 MMS threads per logical core found. If you are an Intel user and have hyperthreading turned on then you have twice as many cores as your cpu has physical cores. If you're an AMD Ryzen user and you have SMT turned on then again you have twice the number of physical cores on the cpu.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by cmbsa » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:53 pm

The audioengie.properties file really works for me. Running C8.5.30 I can work very well.

My problem is still Cubase 9. I can't downgrade to Win8.1 cause this workstation is a fairly new, dedicated Audio PC that came preinstalled with Win10. (and I don't wanna install everything from scratch, either)
C9 still gives me cpu-spikes/audio-crackles all the time, on all my sessions.

One thing bothering me in 8.5 is that playback stops for a moment whenever I open/close a midi-editor window. This doesn't happen in C9. But... unrelated, so nevermind.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by aaandima » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:36 am

Cubase should use the new method "CPU Sets" for several processors under Windows 10.
https://books.google.ch/books?id=y83LDg ... &q&f=false

Another Doc from Microsoft (Online)
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... sets-games


In addition, I would use only one physical processor for these "low latency" processes.

Temporary solution:
Manually you could limit Cubase to one process per processor. This can be done with "Set Affinity".

You can start Cubase with a shortcut which starts the program with "Set Affinity".
https://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/4 ... ndows.html

By the way, who would like to examine what his computer does when playing multimedia: Microsoft has published a new tool "Media eXperience Analyzer" for the analysis of audio and video glitches. Very interesting Video Tutorial:

https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Defrag- ... zer-part-1

more docs: https://docs.microsoft.com/de-ch/window ... xperiences
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Transistor » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:58 pm

With the new i9s incoming, do we have any news on this issue?

Personally, I'm on a hex-core (6 physical + 6 virtual), and I also suffer dropouts from time to time, dropouts that weren't there pre 8.5/9. They _seem_ to be related to network activity, so my problem may be unrelated to the thread-issue, but even so, I'd like to see some general updates.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by PeppaPig » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:57 pm

Well I chose a hex core processor precisely to avoid this issue without having to muck around, so far (touch wood) I haven't had a single hiccup. Projects that would max out my old fx8350 with 2048 buffers, run at below 25% cpu with 64 buffers! Which is nice.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by OzMazAU » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:21 pm

I'm using a 4 by 4 i7 and Cubase 9.0.20.
Did some recording and went to bed and of course the computer went to sleep.
After I and the computer woke up lots of dropouts and I couldn't record anything over a few seconds, completely unusable. (Recording Error: Audio Drop Out Detected.)
I shutdown the computer and started it again. No problems.
Somethings not restoring right.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by peakae » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:38 am

Don't use sleep mode on a daw computer, it might work on some setups but it's better to be sure and do a reboot before using your daw.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Cat » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:33 am

So Microsoft announced Windows 10 Pro for Workstation with extended support for multi core/CPUs:
https://blogs.windows.com/business/2017 ... kstations/

Would this address this issue?

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by djw » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:59 pm

Would using more than one process for it solve anything? Would that also solve the DLL link limit?

Sure hope this won't be a permanent issue.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Bill_T » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:42 am

I discovered the source of my glitching problem was a particular Omnisphere patch!

A project with a single track of "Light As Air" will put my CPU speed up to max and the CPU usage to 100%, with glitches every 10 seconds. Anybody else seeing this?

I have a project with 7 Omnisphere patches and 10 EW Hollywood patches that runs fine at 30% CPU usage. Adding a single "Light As Air" patch brings in glitches, even if it's the ONLY patch. I just checked about a hundred Omnisphere patches, nothing else raises the cpu more than a few percent.

I also limited my quad core CPU to 3 hardware cores (or 6 cores counting the hyperthreads), and that reduced the patch glitching by a lot, but it was still there. I don't know how useful that reduction will be in the long run, but I am now running this browser, Photoshop, my weekly backup, and few other things on 1/4 of my cores, while my lovely project loops along with zero glitches no matter what I do. And that's on a 5+ year old, generation one i7 that is probably 1/3 the speed of current models. The only downside I can see is that the two cores not available to Cubase (1 hardware core and 1 hyperthreaded core) get hammered hard when other programs are running. Will I get problems from localized CPU heating? I dunno. Running other software also slightly raises the Cubase cores, but only about 10% each.

And the mix sounds better without that stupid patch! It hitch hiked in starting with a first approximation and was forgotten. Gotta watch out for that.

PS, the Omnisphere patch glitching is almost identical in the free version of Ableton. I know patches can be ugly, but can they also have bugs? Hmmm.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by stralner » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:06 am

peakae wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:38 am
Don't use sleep mode on a daw computer, it might work on some setups but it's better to be sure and do a reboot before using your daw.
So true, and disable intel speedstep in Bios or you will have cpu spikes
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by rezist » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:08 am

I’m moving from x99/i75820k to x299/i77820x next week. I’ve never experienced any problems with 6 cores.
Well, I hope properties file will do a trick. Any update from Cubase/Steinberg team regarding this issue?
Regards.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by mashipx » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:04 pm

thanks for the info fabio... baffled why other software houses can write their code to suit hyperthreading etc etc and take advantage of modern processor architecture but steinberg cant... are the still stuck in the atari st days??.... ahhhhh the days.

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by cinematree » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:13 am

I am doing my best to understand all the info in this thread. I’m on a x6950 (10 cores, 20 threads) with Windows 10, Cubase 9.0.30, 32 GB of RAM, and a UA Apollo Interface. I have hyper-threading turned off on my machine in the Bios, and am overclocking from 3.0 to 4.2 on each core.

I’ve been aware of the issue with Windows 10 where it limits the number of processes that any single application can run. As a workaround, I’ve been using JBridge to bridge 64 bit plugins onto processes outside of Cubase. Is that the same issue that’s being discussed in this thread?

I did the “audioengine.properties workaround” and initially it seemed to help things run smoother (projects would seem to load more quickly). But like before the workaround, I still locked up in larger projects. I get a spike in the hard drive performance meter when I stop playback and the mouse turns into an hourglass for 2-10 seconds. Projects slow down even if my CPU is still only around 50-60%. It feels ram-related but I have plenty. Maybe it's the processes being maxed out.

Does doing the “audioengine.properties workaround” mean that the processes in cubase are no longer limited and the bridge workaround is no longer required?
Using Cubase 9.5 with Windows 7, Uaudio Thunderbolt Apollo 8 and a UAD Satellite

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Raphie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:42 pm

I would suggest to go back to stock settings first, both in BIOS and windows
Bios optimized defaults, balanced powerplan
Steinberg powerplan in Cubase, you don’t know if your problems are multicore related.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by profdraper » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:07 pm

FWIW, I have been through all of these mods and troubleshooting in search of better performance, less drop-outs etc on Windows 10. This is also in light of the fact that I've worked with mac os systems for many years, but now on a windows workstation because of the horsepower that is not available on Apple systems. The primary grunt issue here being 4k video production. In any case, perhaps the following experiences might be of use.

This dual Xeon box is pretty good: when its good, its extraordinary, when its bad its usually Windows or rather my lack of career length experience with Windows; getting better tho'. Cubase and Nuendo I suspect are also a little hamstrung by less-than-optimal multithreading code and the overheads seem to be greater than some other DAWs. In particular: Studio One 3 and Pro Tools 12.8 HD both of which perform far better in terms of load, throughput, latency and the rest. Still, I do prefer the overall experience of Cubendo.

So, in terms of improving performance for Cubeno, the following did *not* work:
  • BOIS settings, C-states off, Speed step, Hyperthreading etc made no difference (rather, only made the machine more noisy, hotter & consume more power.
  • The number of cores utilised for Win10 etc & the tricks suggested (as per this thread) made no difference.
  • audioengineproperties, 'Set Affinity' etc etc made no difference.
  • Otherwise, all of the other usual Windows tweaks for DAWs have been applied.
All of the above tweaks have been managed and tested periodically in the recent past.

Possibly, this workstation class PC has enough grunt and overhead so that most of the above does not apply [?] Perhaps the suggestions do make improvements in terms of squeezing the most out of less capable single core /gaming-type builds [?] ... This machine is also maintained well and there are really no problems other than the odd Windows 10 'huh?' but which tends to go away on the next boot or so. [Now running Creators Fall update, a few oddities there with the task bar sometimes, no big deal].

However, the following *did* make a difference in terms of performance increase and stability:
  • Cubendo settings: Steinberg Power plan on, Direct Monitoring on (w/ RME UFX+ buffer 128 & 'Enable MMCSS for ASIO' on), ASIO Guard standard settings, ie, nothing especially new here, but the Power Plan did help just a little.
  • 3rd party apps, mildly improved performance, much greater stability:
    – Bitsum's 'ParkControl' manages the CPU cores well. https://bitsum.com/parkcontrol
    – Also from Bitsum, 'Process Lasoo' manages (auto initiating) real time optimisation on a per app basis. https://bitsum.com
So in my experience on this particular PC, the Bitsum tools made a greater difference than all the other stuff combined.

A final comment would be that Steinberg might consider the overall audio engine design in terms of better performance and multithreading in particular (likely coders working on exactly this stuff right now).
  • The UI as well. Presently there are a lot of settings spread about in various locations: some under 'VST Audio System', other under the audio interface settings, others in various places in the preferences. Perhaps these performance settings might be located all in the one place?
  • The CPU meter is very simple and 'underdone' by way of comparison with Pro Tools HD or Studio One 3. Perhaps this might be made far more detailed and accurate in terms of multi-core information, load, plugin impact, Input monitoring, MIDI thru to VIs etc. I found that tweaking and optimising overall performance as per above was infinitely more informative using these other apps. For example, by opening the Pro Tools Multiprocessor window it was easy to check various buffer setting against input record on/off load. Seems very accurate. Ditto Studio One & in terms of the dual Z latency arrangements for VIs and audio tracks.
I hope this may be of use.

I found the Bitsum tools to be very thoughtful and useful in relation to this particular topic. They have the usual free and pro versions; I ended up upgrading to the relatively inexpensive paid versions. Windows seems to be very happy with these & they also auto-manage profiles for other DAWs & NLEs. One nice feature is when not 'pumping' for grunt, they auto fall back to a Balanced, low power plan when idle.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by djw » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:25 pm

>audioengineproperties (...) made no difference.
It's only relevant if you have more than 14 logical cores.

> 'Process Lasoo' manages (auto initiating) real time optimisation on a per app basis.
I would not recommend Process Lasso personally as it destroyed performance and messed up my system's stability when I used it. YMMV.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by cinematree » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:44 pm

Raphie wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:42 pm
I would suggest to go back to stock settings first, both in BIOS and windows
Bios optimized defaults, balanced powerplan
Steinberg powerplan in Cubase, you don’t know if your problems are multicore related.
Thank you for the suggestions, Raphie. I went back to stock and performance is the same. In sessions that are not CPU and RAM intensive (where I'm not approaching max CPU), I don't have many problems... but only if I use JBridge. If I don't use JBridge, Cubase starts to freeze up as a session gets larger - mainly, when I go to instantiate new plugins, nothing happens and the session crashes. With JBridge, I don't have this issue. Is this because of the number of processes that Windows 10 allows? I see that Windows 10 Pro for Workstations has been released. Does anyone know if this will actually expand the number of processes that Cubase is able to internally run?

Another note: I notice that in sessions where things start to slow down, I get a lot of the mouse icon being the hourglass after I stop playback, and it seems the disk indicator (the blue indicator in the performance meter) gets stuck and spikes a lot. If I delete all automation, suddenly the session majorly frees up. Of course it's frustrating to have to delete automation. Any ideas are appreciated.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Raphie » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:20 pm

Jbridge manages 32bit plugins, these won’t even start in C9 without using Jbridge, so not sure if you compare apples with apples?
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by st33l » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:14 pm

"windows 10 pro for workstations...Does anyone know if this will actually expand the number of processes that Cubase is able to internally run?"
this is something i also want to know about???...someone???
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by cinematree » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:26 am

Raphie wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:20 pm
Jbridge manages 32bit plugins, these won’t even start in C9 without using Jbridge, so not sure if you compare apples with apples?
I know that JBridge was designed to bridge 32 bit plugins. But you can also use it to run 64 bit plugins on processes outside of Cubase - I'm not running any 32 bit plugins, only 64 bit. I just know that I get to have way bigger sessions and use way more plugins (I use a lot of Acustica plugins as well as UAD plugins) before maxing out when I run a bunch of the plugins through JBridge. I believe that is because Windows 10 has a limitation on the number of processes one application can have going. This is what I'm hoping will be resolved with Windows 10 Pro for Workstations.
Using Cubase 9.5 with Windows 7, Uaudio Thunderbolt Apollo 8 and a UAD Satellite

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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by djw » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:29 pm

It's a limit on processes, but a limit on statically linked libraries.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by cinematree » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:47 pm

djw wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:29 pm
It's a limit on processes, but a limit on statically linked libraries.
DJW, could you please explain more? And you're saying it's NOT a limit on processes, but a limit on statical linked libraries? It may be that Acustica uses "Statically linked libraries" and so without JBridge, things reach the limit pretty quickly.

Do you know if Windows 10 Pro for Workstations will address the limits on statically linked libraries?
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by peakae » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:02 pm

It a limit on static linked library’s started on one process (Cubase). Yes using jBridge is a well known way of circumventing that by starting more processes (jBridge). Dropouts is another issue, that has to do with the limited number of MMCS priority threads? That Windows 10 can use. If the workstation version differs in that regard, I have no idea, but I would highly doubt it.
Pete Brown (MS) said he would look into it, on the Windows 10 thread on Gearslutz.
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Re: Windows 10: audio dropouts on multi-core CPU setups

Post by Chidavid » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:11 pm

cinematree wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:47 pm
djw wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:29 pm
It's a limit on processes, but a limit on statically linked libraries.
DJW, could you please explain more? And you're saying it's NOT a limit on processes, but a limit on statical linked libraries? It may be that Acustica uses "Statically linked libraries" and so without JBridge, things reach the limit pretty quickly.

Do you know if Windows 10 Pro for Workstations will address the limits on statically linked libraries?
Windows 10 Pro for Workstations doesn't do anything for MMCSS threads that is for sure.
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