[CAN-6382]Mac users with GUI/graphics issue.

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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st p

Post by spec3 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:31 pm

jono not bono wrote:I'm considering buying an Nvidia 1070 GFX card for my Mac Pro 5,1. It uses Pascal drivers which are supported and I'm just hoping this will help the GUI problems I have in Cubase. When I have time I will make a video showing the Cursor being completely un smooth, Lagginess as I zoom into Events, Lagginess when I drag Midi Notes/Data, Zooming in with mouse pressed down (whilst over ruler) and zooming in and out makes all contents of Events both Midi and Audio completely disappear. It makes editing a nightmare and then Cubase will crash, usually as I am editing. I'm not writing this to have a go at Steinberg (I love Cubase). I'm just saying it to say I am experience a lot of problems. I am using an unflashed Nvidia 960 GFX card and I suspect this could be a possible problem so I am willing to change my card for something the Mac Pro 5,1 supports and the 1070 is a beast of a card supporting 4 x 4k monitors so there really shouldn't be any problems with one of those things!
Are you sure? i bought a GTX 980 but the problem persisted. Now I return to 660GTX , no improvement whit 980GTX.. I dont try the latest update of cubase, i dont know if they solved it... i move to Windows now...in Windows no problem about GUI , but i have other *knuf* problems ..haha :evil:

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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st p

Post by Antonio Escobar » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:59 pm

The graphic performance in my TOP NOTCH last MacBook Pro is painful. It was really bad with Cubase 8, but version 9 is unworkable.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st p

Post by Wolfie2112 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:07 pm

Antonio Escobar wrote:The graphic performance in my TOP NOTCH last MacBook Pro is painful. It was really bad with Cubase 8, but version 9 is unworkable.
What is the actual issue(s)? My 2013 MBPro Retina is great, the graphics don't lag, and they are very crisp...even better on C9. I just hope it stays that way! I set it up to use only the high performance graphics, perhaps that makes a difference?

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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st p

Post by Antonio Escobar » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:23 pm

My system responsiveness when using Nuendo and Cubase is painful, but, to be honest, Nuendo and Cubase never perform well neither in my MBPro mid 2014 or the new one. When you have heavy projects it's just unworkable.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st p

Post by Erich Krey » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:12 pm

Lasso wrote:
Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Lasso wrote:Playing back automated parameters of Valhallah Vintage Verb causes huge lags - smooth while writing the automation.

Slate VBC plugins causes lags.
Interesting, thanks, we'll check out Valhalla. The issue you have with VBC might be what our devs found during testing: viewtopic.php?f=250&t=108500&start=150#p635101
Check out this video: http://tonekontrol.dk/temp/IMG_3290.MOV

As you can see WRITING the automation is ok but notice the CPU hit once that automation gets read back - out of control.
Hey Lasso,
which OSX Version do you use? The behavior is reproducible on 10.11.x, in 10.12 it is running without sluggishness. Like Fabio mentioned, this sluggishness occurs with some plugins:
viewtopic.php?f=250&t=108500&start=150#p635101
Please update to 10.12

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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st p

Post by SuStudio » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:11 pm

Erich Krey wrote: Please update to 10.12
Q: What OSX is being used by Steinberg for the online YT videos and Google Hangouts because it doesn't suffer from video issues?

A: 10.10
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st p

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:29 pm

The issue Erich referred to is specific and limited to a few plug-ins, this has been proven to not affect Sierra.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by jorisdeman » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:47 am

Hey Fabio, I don't want to derail this thread to much, and if you want to move this to a separate thread that's cool too.
But there are issues beyond the ones mentioned here that deal with sluggishness due to system setups or plugins.

As I can bootcamp my system, I can run session with the *exact* same configuration on Mac and PC, with the only major difference being the OS.
The difference isn't subtle.
I knew when I moved back to the Mac I might sacrifice a bit of GUI speed, but with recent versions (7 and now, most definitely with 8) it's gotten to the point where that the sluggishness seriously affects workflow.
Asio performance is relatively close, with sessions on the PC running about 10-15% faster.

But GUI redraws are very, very slow on the Mac compared to the PC- this is even noticeable on sessions with just a few tracks, opening and closing the lower zone key or sample editor.
On the PC this is near instant, on the Mac it can be a second or more, and it increases almost exponentially as the session gets more tracks.
On larger sessions with 80-100 tracks, we're talking 3 seconds to open the key editor, a second to select notes, and a confused mousepointer that lages so badly on changing it's context tool dependent on where it is (lanes or key edit area) that I sometimes pencil in notes by accident because I've moved from lanes to notes.

This is not a configuration issue - there is (and always has been) a big discrepancy in GUI performance between the PC and Mac, which suggests that whatever (multi-platform) framework you're using is just simply vastly more efficient on a PC compared to a Mac for redraw speeds.
My understanding is a) the Mac triple buffers redraws (to stop tearing and flickering) as opposed to Windows double buffering that would already make it a tad slower, and that b) this framework used for Cubendo is also not GPU accelerated, which means the CPU is carrying the job of redraws (in addition to the audio processing and internal database management it's doing).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a move to a GPU accelerated framework remedy most of these issues (especially with Mac's Metal graphics layer) and also make it much easier to support a scaling GUI that could cater for HDPI screens?
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by djw » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:22 am

jorisdeman wrote:Mac's Metal graphics layer
Using Metal would mean you're only writing for Apple devices. It's by choice that Apple doesn't support the latest OpenGL or Vulkan. If it did then at least the new graphics code would be universal.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:40 am

Hello,

not derailing at all. Of course there are issues that go beyond plug-ins, what Erich and I were referring to in this case is this specific problem: viewtopic.php?f=250&t=108500&start=150#p635101 (OS X 10.11 only, selected plug-ins only). The topic popped up again due to Erich testing if the problem with the mentioned plug-in had the same origin.

Indeed, there are several factors that can contribute to the issue, I'm not even sure all of them are known.
There are a few users that are affected by this in a very heavy way, even in light projects and it gets worse with bigger projects - we've seen a few systems remotely showing varying degrees of sluggishness.

I'm not the right guy to talk about frameworks and APIs, but I don't think the shaders, tassellation, textures, transparencies and multi-threaded rendering features offered in Metal can be beneficial to Cubase. A dev would say better about this.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by Vinylizor » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:45 am

djw wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:22 am
Using Metal would mean you're only writing for Apple devices. It's by choice that Apple doesn't support the latest OpenGL or Vulkan. If it did then at least the new graphics code would be universal.
It's commonly believed that Steinberg uses a unified code base between the OS versions so that there is parity between releases across the two platforms. Only Steinberg knows how much of the code is unified though - it can't possibly all be.

The problem is we now have immensely powerful computers that are, to all intents and purposes useless with Cubendo because they don't currently harness that power. There needs to be a rethink so we can get more out of modern chips with multiple cores.

And when it comes to graphics, we're kind of missing the point about using GPU's.
Yes it would be great if Cubendo could hook into them - and don't forget its only two platforms to code differently for.

The real issue is that the graphics in Cubendo aren't exactly cutting edge games quality! It's not calculating lighting, shadows and god knows what else games do in real time at super high frame rates. Cubase doesn't even yet support HiDPI, so even the built in graphics on most computers should be able to handle it with ease. Pretty much the only things that move are meters and parts that we drag around the screen - yet the graphics are currently worse now than they were on my first Mac with VST over 20 years ago!

This can't be right. And the blame can't all be laid at the door of an Apple OS update or rogue plugins, because the problem must surely be that the underlying way Cubendo creates its graphics should be better.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by jorisdeman » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:14 pm

"Using Metal would mean you're only writing for Apple devices. It's by choice that Apple doesn't support the latest OpenGL or Vulkan. If it did then at least the new graphics code would be universal."

I guess it depends on what your idea of universal is. There will always be components that don't translate directly between platforms; Asio and Core Audio being one of them. I suspect midi implementation is also different between the platforms.
I would absolutely agree that when it comes to general functionality, the programs and code base should be identical.
But to truly harness the power of each platform (Mac and PC), there will be elements that will have to be platform specific to ensure maximum performance; to strictly hold on to a cross platform solution for the sake of it would be doing a disservice to both.

Coming from a game background, if I look at something like Unity, graphically it operates on a system of platform specific code; directx on the PC, opengl on the mac or pc, or metal on the mac, with non graphics code being cross platform.
For features one API might contain that the others don't, there are fallbacks.

But in the case of Cubendo, as Fabio rightly points out, it wouldn't even require the full set of 3d features.
The basic features it would need, such as scaling, alpha transparency, blending modes, anti-aliased text & line rendering and simple 2d sprite manipulation are supported natively on both opengl and metal and are incredibly fast.
It would also make supporting a HDPI-scaleable interface much, much easier.
The point being that a modest GPU would be able to render those at 50/60 frames a second without even breaking a sweat.
In fact, would go as far as saying the bottleneck would not be the gui redraws anymore, it would be the internal system figuring out what to draw and when before it gets dumped to the GPU.
There are already cross platform API's like Qt (not to confused with Quicktime, and used for Dorico) or JUCE, used by UVI, Korg and Roli Seaboard, which is totally focussed on audio that support GPU rendering for GUI's.

A big part of my frustration comes from knowing that our machines have very capable GPU's just sitting there, whilst we slog on with slow and sticky software rendered GUI's.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by Antonio Escobar » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:08 pm

To add more wood to the fire with some extra points, I've seen an old i5 PC running a heavy Cubase 9 session effortless and my top notch last generation full MacBook Pro can't move fluently a 10 tracks no plugins session. 4100 € vs 500 €
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by In_Stereo » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:55 pm

jorisdeman wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:14 pm
But in the case of Cubendo, as Fabio rightly points out, it wouldn't even require the full set of 3d features.
The basic features it would need, such as scaling, alpha transparency, blending modes, anti-aliased text & line rendering and simple 2d sprite manipulation are supported natively on both opengl and metal and are incredibly fast.
It would also make supporting a HDPI-scaleable interface much, much easier.
The point being that a modest GPU would be able to render those at 50/60 frames a second without even breaking a sweat.
In fact, would go as far as saying the bottleneck would not be the gui redraws anymore, it would be the internal system figuring out what to draw and when before it gets dumped to the GPU.
There are already cross platform API's like Qt (not to confused with Quicktime, and used for Dorico) or JUCE, used by UVI, Korg and Roli Seaboard, which is totally focussed on audio that support GPU rendering for GUI's.

A big part of my frustration comes from knowing that our machines have very capable GPU's just sitting there, whilst we slog on with slow and sticky software rendered GUI's.
This is really interesting information, thanks for posting about it. I'm looking at other options (as I've said, I'm back on PT currently for new projects, unfortunately) because professionally speaking my work can't wait anymore for this to be fixed. But hopefully the fix will happen soon and I can come back to the Cubendo, the DAW that I moved to over a year ago because of its superiority in many other ways for my work (though it needs help in plenty of areas, like this one!).
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by Antonio Escobar » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:33 pm

djw wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:47 pm
Antonio Escobar wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:08 pm
To add more wood to the fire with some extra points, I've seen an old i5 PC running a heavy Cubase 9 session effortless and my top notch last generation full MacBook Pro can't move fluently a 10 tracks no plugins session. 4100 € vs 500 €
If Cubase is your main software, what is the reason to not to just use Windows instead?
I don't like Windows, that's it. Besides that Steinberg claims that Cubase runs perfectly in Mac.
Last edited by Antonio Escobar on Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by jorisdeman » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:03 pm

Also, HDPI scaling in Windows is still dodgy, and Cubendo doesn't have a scaleable interface yet.
Meaning that even when I bootcamp my iMac 5k to Windows 10, I have a choice of either running in native 5k, which means that Nuendo's interface is so tiny using it gives me a migraine, or using one of Windows' scaling options, which makes it look ugly and blurry as the interface is upscaled by the system (and incidentally, also hard to read!)
I have a lot of love for SB and Nuendo in particular, but how after retina/hdpi has been around for 3-4 years it still doesn't have a 'modern' scaleable interface is beyond me. It seems Studio One is wooping some serious *ss in that department right now.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by Wolfie2112 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:49 pm

Antonio Escobar wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:33 pm
djw wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:47 pm
Antonio Escobar wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:08 pm
To add more wood to the fire with some extra points, I've seen an old i5 PC running a heavy Cubase 9 session effortless and my top notch last generation full MacBook Pro can't move fluently a 10 tracks no plugins session. 4100 € vs 500 €
If Cubase is your main software, what is the reason to not to just use Windows instead?
I don't like Windows, that's it. Besides that Steinberg claims that Cubase runs perfectly in Mac.
You definitely have something going on with your system somewhere (bad plugins, etc). Cubase 9 DOES run great on a Mac. How do I know? I work on my 2013 MB Pro retina daily without issue....with heavy track counts (50+). I wish people would stop blaming Steinberg for this crap. If you can't run 10 tracks, you have bigger issues.

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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by jorisdeman » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:59 pm

hmmm...I would say it runs, but it doesn't run great.
Don't get me wrong, that doesn't take away from the features of C9/N8 - I'm absolutley loving those! Direct Offline has a few bugs, but generally it works great.

But performance wise Windows runs both a lot smoother than the Mac.
I've just finished a session with around 100 tracks (80 midi, 20 audio and a bunch of groups) in N8, with CPU use around the 60-70% mark on the Mac.
It's sticky, GUI updates are slow with regards to scrolling, and editing midi is very slow - as described previously, cutting notes, transposing them can sometimes take seconds for things to react.
This session flies on the PC - CPU use is not too disimilar, but it simply doesn't seem to affect GUI updates nearly as much as it does on the Mac.
Editing is still snappy and smooth.

I would agree that if your system can't run more than 10 tracks smoothly you probably have other issues. But there are also GUI update issues on the Mac regardless that need to be adressed in terms of performance...
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by Antonio Escobar » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:23 pm

Wolfie2112 wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:49 pm
Antonio Escobar wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:33 pm
djw wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:47 pm


If Cubase is your main software, what is the reason to not to just use Windows instead?
I don't like Windows, that's it. Besides that Steinberg claims that Cubase runs perfectly in Mac.
You definitely have something going on with your system somewhere (bad plugins, etc). Cubase 9 DOES run great on a Mac. How do I know? I work on my 2013 MB Pro retina daily without issue....with heavy track counts (50+). I wish people would stop blaming Steinberg for this crap. If you can't run 10 tracks, you have bigger issues.
My big issue is that I work every day, 360 days a years, 12 hours a day, in Nuendo 7 with no big issues. The interface is still laggy with high CPU load, it always was, but it's workable. So I expect to have a similar experience, or better, with Nuendo 8 and Cubase 9.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by In_Stereo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:30 pm

Wolfie2112 wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:49 pm
Antonio Escobar wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:33 pm
djw wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:47 pm


If Cubase is your main software, what is the reason to not to just use Windows instead?
I don't like Windows, that's it. Besides that Steinberg claims that Cubase runs perfectly in Mac.
You definitely have something going on with your system somewhere (bad plugins, etc). Cubase 9 DOES run great on a Mac. How do I know? I work on my 2013 MB Pro retina daily without issue....with heavy track counts (50+). I wish people would stop blaming Steinberg for this crap. If you can't run 10 tracks, you have bigger issues.
Wolfie, there are very large amounts of people who have this issue, so much so that Steinberg is paying major attention to it now. Period.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by In_Stereo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:30 pm

In_Stereo wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:30 pm


You definitely have something going on with your system somewhere (bad plugins, etc). Cubase 9 DOES run great on a Mac. How do I know? I work on my 2013 MB Pro retina daily without issue....with heavy track counts (50+). I wish people would stop blaming Steinberg for this crap. If you can't run 10 tracks, you have bigger issues.
Wolfie, there are very large amounts of people who have this issue, so much so that Steinberg is paying major attention to it now. It's also happening to many Nuendo 8 users. Period.

Some seem to have something that is making the problem not appear, and hopefully Steinberg cab figure out what that issue is. I, like so many others, have other DAWs on the exact same computer that work flawlessly. Pro Tools had this same issue a few years ago and they fixed it (I used to be on Pro Tools and am back on it again until this issue is remedied in Cubase). I have a stock trashcan Mac Pro, and again: Pro Tools, Reaper, and Studio One (when I tried it) all do not have this issue at all.

Period.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by In_Stereo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:35 pm

In_Stereo wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:30 pm
In_Stereo wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:30 pm


You definitely have something going on with your system somewhere (bad plugins, etc). Cubase 9 DOES run great on a Mac. How do I know? I work on my 2013 MB Pro retina daily without issue....with heavy track counts (50+). I wish people would stop blaming Steinberg for this crap. If you can't run 10 tracks, you have bigger issues.
Wolfie, there are very large amounts of people who have this issue, so much so that Steinberg is paying major attention to it now. It's also happening to Nuendo 8 users (look at the Nuendo forum). Period.

I'm happy to hear you don't have the problem. You seem to be in the minority here. I, like so many others, have other DAWs on the exact same computer that work flawlessly. Pro Tools had this same issue a few years ago and they fixed it (I used to be on Pro Tools and am back on it again until this issue is remedied in Cubase). I have a stock trashcan Mac Pro, and again: Pro Tools, Reaper, and Studio One (when I tried it) all do not have this issue at all.

Period.
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by In_Stereo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:35 pm

Wolfie, there are very large amounts of people who have this issue, so much so that Steinberg is paying major attention to it now. It's also happening to Nuendo 8 users (look at the Nuendo forum). Period.

I'm happy to hear you don't have the problem. You seem to be in the minority here. I, like so many others, have other DAWs on the exact same computer that work flawlessly. Pro Tools had this same issue a few years ago and they fixed it (I used to be on Pro Tools and am back on it again until this issue is remedied in Cubendo). I have a stock trashcan Mac Pro, and again: Pro Tools, Reaper, and Studio One (when I tried it) all do not have this issue at all. And others including me do not have this issue with Nuendo 7.

Please do not derail this thread -- most of us are trying to help fix the problem, whatever the solution may be (as long as it doesn't mean having to buy different hardware for the Mac or something). But so many people experience it, and it's a very real issue.
Last edited by In_Stereo on Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Cubase 9.5, Nuendo 8.0.2, Trashcan Mac 6-core 3.7ghz, Sierra 10.12.1 OS, AMD FirePro D300 Dual, 32 gig RAM, plugins galore, some hardware, a bunch of real instruments and synths, Apollo 8 TB, etc., etc., and two cats

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jorisdeman
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by jorisdeman » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:16 am

And I guess requirements differ.

Not to want to get into some kind of 'mine's bigger than yours' debate, but for the area I work in 50 tracks is a relatively small session.
A big session? 300+ tracks - and I know quite a few people who go even bigger than that.

When working on orchestral scores for film and games, having all the articulations loaded, with a bunch of pre-records and a large number of audio tracks, you get there quite quickly.
5-6 instances of Kontakt locally, 15-20 synths, and 4-5 instances or Vienna Ensemble Pro, with 32-64 outputs each, connecting to 2-3 external slave machines running another raft of Kontakts is not unusual.
It still needs to work fairly smoothly, and it does on a PC.
Nuendo 8, Mac Os X Sierra 10.12.5 / Windows 10 | iMac 5k 4gh i7 2016 maxed with 32gb ram | X-keys |PT Control | VSLE Pro | UAD Apollo Quad via Thunderbolt | Dual Xeon & i7 Hexacore Slave PC's | G-tech G-Raid drives

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jorisdeman
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Re: Mac users with GUI/graphics issue, please read the 1st post!

Post by jorisdeman » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:55 am

I'm back on 7 for the film I'm working on as Nuendo 8 is just not cutting it GUI-performance wise. The lag is unbearable.
N7 is just about coping and surprisingly steady even at 80-90% cpu load.
Nuendo 8, Mac Os X Sierra 10.12.5 / Windows 10 | iMac 5k 4gh i7 2016 maxed with 32gb ram | X-keys |PT Control | VSLE Pro | UAD Apollo Quad via Thunderbolt | Dual Xeon & i7 Hexacore Slave PC's | G-tech G-Raid drives

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