Skinny Scrollbars Stink

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Orbit-50 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:20 pm

suntower wrote:But (paraphrasing my old boss) "NEVER underestimate SB's ability to market Kentucky Fried Chicken as 'hot. dead. bird." :D
:lol:
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by StefK » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:29 am

+1
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by beerbong » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:22 pm

I support the older style scrollbars as well. Yet another example where most users were happy with Cubase6/7 era versions and changed for no real apparent reasons.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:54 pm

What do you scrollbar connoisseurs think of Reaper's scrollbars? They took the middle road.

For reference, from my feature request for resizeable scrollbars:

Image

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by peakae » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:17 pm

They look nice and practical IMHO
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by thermionic » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:26 pm

I've been a customer of Steinberg's since Pro-16 and the Atari STFM 1040 arrived in the 80s, so you might guess I'm fairly decrepit, but I don't want to be put out to grass just yet. I have overcome my eyesight problems (macular degeneration) with magnifiers and large monitors etc. but the skinny scrollbars are a setback. Would it be too difficult to make scrollbars user-adjustable? Pretty please! ;)

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by beerbong » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:36 pm

Yes, that reaper style (also in Reason) would be a great addition.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Kypresso » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:21 am

I'm kind of surprised that they haven't been sued under some disability act from somewhere in the world yet. There's usually lawyers crawling all over this kind of stuff.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:12 pm

Kypresso wrote:I'm kind of surprised that they haven't been sued under some disability act from somewhere in the world yet. There's usually lawyers crawling all over this kind of stuff.
You're free to sell anything you want unless maybe it's something from the government that everyone's forced to use.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by jpgtr » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:14 pm

Scrollbars themselves are a heinously inefficient means of window navigation. (ie. Having to move your mouse over to a specific region before you can even navigate) A real throw-back to 1990's GUI, IMO!

Instead of trying to bring back fat honkin' scrollbars, we need a better, more evolutionary approach to scroll wheel/ball/touchpad screen integration with window navigation. :ugeek:

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:27 pm

jpgtr wrote:Scrollbars themselves are a heinously inefficient means of window navigation. (ie. Having to move your mouse over to a specific region before you can even navigate) A real throw-back to 1990's GUI, IMO!

Instead of trying to bring back fat honkin' scrollbars, we need a better, more evolutionary approach to scroll wheel/ball/touchpad screen integration with window navigation. :ugeek:

//
The modern way you're talking out probably would be touch, right? You can use the middle mouse button in a similar way.

Scrollbars are more efficient to move larger distances That's why the track overview in the project window is pretty cool.

The people who use scrollbars for every little movement slow themselves down.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Stephen57 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:51 pm

djw wrote:What do you scrollbar connoisseurs think of Reaper's scrollbars? They took the middle road.

For reference, from my feature request for resizeable scrollbars:

Image
Cubase sort of does this with the zoom control. I like how the example graphic looks as well. If it could be added to Cubase, fine, but not at the expense of current zoom controls. In fact, if anything, I still feel I haven't masted the zoom controls in Cubase but to the degree I have, I like how they work.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:07 pm

Cubase sort of does this with the zoom control. I like how the example graphic looks as well. If it could be added to Cubase, fine, but not at the expense of current zoom controls. In fact, if anything, I still feel I haven't masted the zoom controls in Cubase but to the degree I have, I like how they work.
If you mean the overview that's available for the project and audio, I like it too. But it's not available for the Key Editor.

I might make a feature request for an Overview Line for the Key Editor so it can be shown and manipulated in the same way.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:51 pm

Compared to what Stephen57 posted, Cubase has nothing on that unfortunately but it is not something that would make me want to change.

There are many reasons for me to continue using Cubase not least the new Zones feature but it is a bit of a sore point what has happened with the Scroll Bars.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:10 pm

audioguy wrote:Compared to what Stephen57 posted,
You mean what djw posted~ 8-)

It's not like it's impossible to implement if they see it as important.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:29 pm

Yes.

I'm wondering if there is a technical reason why SB has these scrollbars and if the SDK they are using does not allow for a more complex scrolling arrangement.

I know NI has had them for a long time and they really annoyed me in the past but I have stopped using their products anyway due to their poor UI performance.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:36 pm

I don't there's any reason except that they didn't design it that way.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by McBass » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:42 pm

My issue with the scroll bars is that the same issue continues through out the program. Same small and sometimes hidden/disappearing scroll bars in plugin menu, plugin manager, many of the smaller sub sections, like in inspector and on mixer. Only easy way to navigate is to highlight the region or section of gui and use the scrollwheel. I happen to have carpal tunnel issues and try not to use the mouse and scrollwheel as much as possible. I have a touch monitor but these menus and sections don't respond to touch. Only if you can find and pickup the miniscule scroll bars with big fat fingers. So back to the mouse...it really sucks...just about any standard Windows programs respond to basic touch and have standard gui navigation like scrollbars. Give us the option. Steinberg said they were focusing on fixing the windows (not win os) gui issues to make them work in a more standardized way in the host OS, and so far they maybe are only about a bit less than half way there.
Last edited by McBass on Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:46 pm

McBass wrote:...
To you personally I would recommend a display with pen input, like a Wacom Cintiq (but something cheaper if possible), or just a pen tablet without a screen. No mouse and you have way more precision than touch.

Also, FL Studio is a good DAW that's optimized for touch screens.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:12 pm

I made a mockup for the Key Editor to have an Overview Line, which essentially functions like a fat, draggable, resizeable scrollbar. It doesn't have the arrow buttons, but if Cubase wants to stick with their current UI choices then this is the closest solution.

Image

The topic in case you like it.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Nickeldome » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:45 pm

audioguy wrote:Compared to what Stephen57 posted, Cubase has nothing on that unfortunately but it is not something that would make me want to change.

There are many reasons for me to continue using Cubase not least the new Zones feature but it is a bit of a sore point what has happened with the Scroll Bars.
Nowadays I hardly try to use the scroll bars because they are so tiny and hard to grab that in this state they might as well remove them as far as I'm concerned.

Normally I use my Panorama P1 to navigate and if not I mostly use the up/down drag on the ruler bar to quickly zoom in/out to go to a specific time or bar in the project. For minor left/right scrolling I use the mouse scroll wheel to scroll vertically and shift+wheel for horizontally. For quick navigation to chorus verse or whatever section I need I create markers. This way I can probably quickly navigate to 99% of what I want.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by jpgtr » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:57 pm

djw wrote:Scrollbars are more efficient to move larger distances That's why the track overview in the project window is pretty cool.

The people who use scrollbars for every little movement slow themselves down.
Good point! And yes, when I do need to jump to the end of a large distance, I having been getting into using the track overview more. However, since clicking on track overview doesn't lend towards predictable results (post click, you gotta look around and re-orientate yourself with where the page has landed), I'll modify my previous suggestion:

- Modifier key #1 to safely scroll with mouse wheel or ball when hovered over mix window.
- Modifier key #2 to safely "fast" scroll with mouse wheel or ball when hovered over mix window.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Stephen57 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:53 pm

Nickeldome wrote:
audioguy wrote:Compared to what Stephen57 posted, Cubase has nothing on that unfortunately but it is not something that would make me want to change.

There are many reasons for me to continue using Cubase not least the new Zones feature but it is a bit of a sore point what has happened with the Scroll Bars.
Nowadays I hardly try to use the scroll bars because they are so tiny and hard to grab that in this state they might as well remove them as far as I'm concerned.

Normally I use my Panorama P1 to navigate and if not I mostly use the up/down drag on the ruler bar to quickly zoom in/out to go to a specific time or bar in the project. For minor left/right scrolling I use the mouse scroll wheel to scroll vertically and shift+wheel for horizontally. For quick navigation to chorus verse or whatever section I need I create markers. This way I can probably quickly navigate to 99% of what I want.
I'm working in much the same way as you describe. I find I'm pretty much working in two basic zoom levels, 1) Project Level (more zoomed out) and 2) Part Level (zoomed in when working on shorter sections). I zoom using the rulers first and the mouse wheel second. I do like the drag-to-zoom scroll bars exampled in this thread.

The most uncomfortable skinny scroll bar for me is on the Mixer to scroll the racks. That bar is difficult to see and the mouse resolution has problems finding it at times. :(

Overly skinny (hairline) scroll bars and hard-to-see program elements make for less optimal program operation for users; this hinders users from fully using and mastering the functions and features Cubase does provide. In other words, it's a foot bullet for the company and a source of discomfort and inefficiency for users. let's hope Cubase improves in this area. Don't remove, improve. :-)
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Help with Cubase:
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by lordExtra » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:30 pm

I would prefer not having any scrollbars at all, I use a pen and holding down the upper key (middle mouse button mapped), it enables me to pan through windows. The rest is shortcut navigation.

However, the overview as suggested by djw would be amazing, i wished the one on top of the mixer would work properly...it jumps back all the way to the left as you hit the right hand side.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:07 pm

lordExtra wrote:However, the overview as suggested by djw would be amazing,
Please support my feature request for this here: viewtopic.php?f=252&t=115738
lordExtra wrote:i wished the one on top of the mixer would work properly...it jumps back all the way to the left as you hit the right hand side.
Please confirm my bug report for this here: viewtopic.php?f=253&t=110567

:)

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