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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:32 am
by suntower
david_d wrote:I sincerely wish Steinberg would reach outside their immediate labor pool and contract a dedicated UI expert to perform a usability study and recommend standard/popular UI conventions where appropriate. And, while I'm ranting, that includes following best practices for readability and negative space. That is to say, cramming as much of everything into as little space as possible eventually produces diminished returns.
I've been saying that since SX2. SX1 was a 'clean slate'. If one were able to look back, it was explicitly designed to be clean and simple. Unfortunately... and I -know- how unPC this sounds, I always come back to a certain 'Germanic' concept of UI design which seems like the total opposite of 'Silicon Valley' UX. They just can't seem to help themselves---they -live- to cram as many gizmos as possible onto each window.

This is the tired analogy I always think of WRT Cubase: I think back to my old BMW where (literally) -every- gizmo always felt like it was in the wrong place versus American or Japanese autos... eg. the window controls were right where you wouldn't expect them top be... next to the stick shift! :shock: Yes, one can get used to these things, but it takes a TON of memorisation or added effort, which takes one's mind off of THE ROAD! It seems like they go out of their way to be (cough) 'distinctive'. To my mind, people use Windows or Mac largely for a CONSISTENT UI.

Why -not- use the standard icons/objects/etc? Why the need to re-invent the scrollbar? (....er 'wheel')

To my mind, the minimalist designs of web apps should be the goal. Valhalla plug-ins are a great example.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:33 am
by zolhof
Definitely +1

Trying using the scrollbars on a 4K screen... PAIN!

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:18 pm
by Orbit-50
I thought it was just me suntower. I have a Hyundai Genesis 4.6, and although the placement of accessories in my car is not as bad as what you mentioned, everything in the Genesis seems as if though it were moved two to three inches from where I'm expecting them to be. Not in a good way either. :lol: Prior to this, all I drove was Chevrolets. Every single day I drive this car, I curse the person who designed it that way.

Sorry, back on topic, it would be nice if Steinberg had designed some sort of ribbon controller for scrolling.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:35 pm
by Prock
suntower wrote:They were terrible in C8, but now they're even -worse-. The (wonderful) lower section makes it even harder to navigate. We -need- NORMAL width scrollbars... now more than ever.

(And don't get me started on the VST Instruments Rack... no scroll bars at all!)

UPDATE: What drives me even worse than the angel-hair scroll bars is the ABSENCE of the down and up (or left and right) arrows at the boundary of each scroll bar. I use those ALL the time as a 'page up' or 'page down' functions with the mouse. But now that these are -gone-, I am -constantly- overshooting the place I want to navigate to. OUTRAGEOUS!
+1 for improving the skinny scroll bars and the missing arrows.

I find it amazing that this has to be put in as a "Feature Request" instead of an "Issue" due to incompetent program design. :(

viewtopic.php?f=228&t=71629&p=413475&hi ... ar#p413475
viewtopic.php?f=228&t=69888&hilit=scroll+bar
viewtopic.php?f=228&t=85684&p=481414&hi ... ar#p481414

I'm sure there are others...

Regards 8-)

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:50 pm
by mroekalea
+1

My number 1 irritating problem, miss grabbing having to focus a second or third time is the thing that happens most during my sessions with cubase.
While reserving as much as possible screen estate is a good thing, but regarding this scrollbars they must re-consider!

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:40 pm
by suntower
AGAIN: There's more to it than just skinniness...

1. Yes, they are skinny and non-standard.

2. The 'arrows' at left/right (or up/down on vertical bars) are now missing. THIS IS EVEN MORE TROUBLING TO ME. I NEED THESE!

3. And on some windows (notably, the VST Instruments Rack) the scroll bars are COMPLETELY GONE!

Look... there's a -reason- MS and Apple and Linux create an OS/GUI... to engender a consistent UI! It's not only foolish, but ARROGANT to create a unique UI with the assumption that one knows better than (literally) hundreds of thousands of hours of usability testing. There is a -reason- that these UI objects exist in the way that they do!

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:49 pm
by mroekalea
AMEN!

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:26 pm
by Weasel
Look... there's a -reason- MS and Apple and Linux create an OS/GUI... to engender a consistent UI! It's not only foolish, but ARROGANT to create a unique UI with the assumption that one knows better than (literally) hundreds of thousands of hours of usability testing. There is a -reason- that these UI objects exist in the way that they do!
Couldn't have stated the case better. This is a classic example of needlessly bad design.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:33 pm
by tombuur
+1

However, they are broader than you think. You don't have to put the mouse cursor exactly on the bar. But still confusing.

I have a similar problem with the Windows 10 edges when moving windows around, I miss about half of the time.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:42 pm
by ggc
what about a "hand" tool

when activated:

left mouse button = fixate hand on screen
left mouse button again = release fix point
mouse up/down/left/right = move up down left right from fixated point
mouse wheel = center screen to and and zoom in/out of fix point

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:12 pm
by -steve-
ggc wrote:what about a "hand" tool
Do you mean in addition to the middle-click hand tool?
Image

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:18 pm
by ggc
well, yeah.. an "improved" hand tool so to speak... ( with "fixate" and "zoom to" function )

(p.s. given - i always forget about that middle click hand :P ) - i guess pressing that scroller as a button is kind awkward to me)

thx and remind me again every few months :P


edit: yes, i see it now..! all those functions i described in my post above, all toggled by the middle click.

(click middle once to fixate and enter "smart mode" and click again to release... - for people who like it how it is now, the "long hold" system can be preserved while adding the additional "smart hand" functions described above

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:23 pm
by Sundayforsammy
Please juse give me back some usable scroll bars and more importantly ARROWS. :evil:

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:34 am
by Prock
So, what is it... day 12 with our new CB9 and I feel I have to chime in here again. :?

I suppose it was just a bad programming design choice to make the scroll bars so skinny. Bottom line is that they are too skinny and this needs to be fixed.

BUT...

The missing left/right and up/down arrows on the vertical and more importantly, horizontal scroll bar make it a crap shoot when moving to the position you want to hit. The movement without the arrows is just not fine enough to allow for an accurate position.

If someone has figured out a way to accurately move left/right with the scroll bar please share.

And the missing scroll bars from some windows. Holy Moly!

These issues should be considered programming "bugs". Eliminating them had to be a mistake.

Steinberg please fix these as soon as possible.

Suntower... have you tried to submit this as an issue? If not, please copy/paste your 1st post on this thread to the "Issues/Bug Report" area and let the powers decide if these are worthy to be fixed or if.... whatever. :roll:

Regards 8-)

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:36 am
by djw
Prock wrote:The movement without the arrows is just not fine enough to allow for an accurate position.
I genuinely didn't realize that people use the arrow buttons on scrollbars.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:44 am
by Prock
djw wrote:
Prock wrote:The movement without the arrows is just not fine enough to allow for an accurate position.
I genuinely didn't realize that people use the arrow buttons on scrollbars.
Please share how you accurately get your horizontal position. I have resorted to use shift/mouse wheel to get a "finer" movement but, you have to place your cursor on the horizontal scroll bar for it to work so, for me in the previous versions of CB, it was easier/faster to just click on the (now missing) arrows.

Regards 8-)

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:57 am
by suntower
I use them (...er... rather I did) literally AT LEAST ONCE EVERY 30 SECONDS. They were my absolute fave method of navigation. Yes, I know about key commands and mouse wheel but they are simply not as fast in many cases. But even if they're a few milliseconds slower, the big advantage? THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE.

For example, now when I access the Instruments Rack? I have to stop and think, because it works unlike -any- other Cubase Window. Why for God's sake? What is the UX -advantage-? (Spoiler alert: There is none).

I sound like a broken record, but the thing about the left/right/up/down arrows and the scrollbars is that they are supposed to be STANDARD. I don't have to think about them because they are BURNED into my fingers through 20 years of using Windows, Mac and Linux.

By abandoning them, Cubase is basically going rogue and making me have to use Cubase unlike -any- other program I use.

ONE FINAL RANT: Old guys like me, remember when SX was originally released. Old time VST5 users were -so- unhappy because Cubase was, by 2002, a total UI -mess-. EVERY window looked and worked different. So when SX was release Charlie and Lars told everyone explicitly: SX is a clean slate. It is meant to be -consistent-. There were many complaints that SX had dropped many features from VST5 but Charlie and Lars responded that CONSISTENCY WAS WORTH IT. And I agreed. I bought into it totally! Gradually they brought back the old features and added more. But slowly? The inconsistencies have crept back in and now? It's almost as bad as VST5. Whatever benefits have been gained from new features? Something essential has been lost. And I don't get it. There is simply NO REASON (or benefit to the user) for the Cubase UI to be so inconsistent or so divergent from the basic Windows/Mac UI standards. The tiny amount of real estate gained is a terrible bargain for the consistent functionality which has been lost.

---JC


djw wrote:
Prock wrote:The movement without the arrows is just not fine enough to allow for an accurate position.
I genuinely didn't realize that people use the arrow buttons on scrollbars.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:58 am
by suntower
Indeed. I too would like to know of your Wu-Tang Kung Fu.
Prock wrote:
djw wrote:
Prock wrote:The movement without the arrows is just not fine enough to allow for an accurate position.
I genuinely didn't realize that people use the arrow buttons on scrollbars.
Please share how you accurately get your horizontal position. I have resorted to use shift/mouse wheel to get a "finer" movement but, you have to place your cursor on the horizontal scroll bar for it to work so, for me in the previous versions of CB, it was easier/faster to just click on the (now missing) arrows.

Regards 8-)

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:02 am
by djw
Prock wrote:Please share how you accurately get your horizontal position.
I drag my mouse, holding the middle button.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:07 am
by Prock
suntower wrote:I use them (...er... rather I did) literally AT LEAST ONCE EVERY 30 SECONDS. They were my absolute fave method of navigation. Yes, I know about key commands and mouse wheel but they are simply not as fast in many cases. But even if they're a few milliseconds slower, the big advantage? THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE...
Agreed
Prock wrote:...
Suntower... have you tried to submit this as an issue? If not, please copy/paste your 1st post on this thread to the "Issues/Bug Report" area and let the powers decide if these are worthy to be fixed or if.... whatever. :roll:
Just saying...
suntower wrote:Indeed. I too would like to know of your Wu-Tang Kung Fu.
:lol:

Regards 8-)

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:08 am
by djw
Exclusive Wu-Tang Kung Fu in action:

Image

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:04 am
by -steve-
djw wrote:
Prock wrote:Please share how you accurately get your horizontal position.
I drag my mouse, holding the middle button.
Me too. (except in the Score Editor)

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:18 am
by suntower
Thanks for taking the time to do that. Sincerely.
djw wrote:Exclusive Wu-Tang Kung Fu in action:

Image
But speaking just for meself... 'the hand' is as useless in Cubase as it is in Game Of Thrones.

In fact... don't get me started, but tool switching is another area of Cubase I think could be handled a LOT more efficiently.

I shouldn't have to switch tools to -navigate-. In UX-land 'tools' and 'navigation' are two -very- different concepts.

In any event, a definite step backwards. But again, cheers for taking the time to do the demo.

---JC

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:23 am
by suntower
Prock wrote: Suntower... have you tried to submit this as an issue? If not, please copy/paste your 1st post on this thread to the "Issues/Bug Report" area and let the powers decide if these are worthy to be fixed or if.... whatever. :roll:
I'll do that. But it's a fool's errand (no jokes please) because the Product Manager will simply come back with "Functions As Designed"

Sadly, there's no place for "Design So Terrible As To Have Wandered Into Malfunction". When was the last time you saw -any- piece of software backtrack on a lousy design feature? It usually takes 3-4 =years= before a company will fess up to something like this. I dunno if it's stubbornness or not wanting to hurt Dave's feelings or -what-. But SB just isn't known for admitting mistakes.

Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:57 am
by djw
suntower wrote:Thanks for taking the time to do that. Sincerely.
djw wrote:Exclusive Wu-Tang Kung Fu in action:

Image
But speaking just for meself... 'the hand' is as useless in Cubase as it is in Game Of Thrones.
I didn't have to switch tools. I just held the middle mouse button...