Skinny Scrollbars Stink

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:14 pm

djw wrote:
lordExtra wrote:However, the overview as suggested by djw would be amazing,
Please support my feature request for this here: viewtopic.php?f=252&t=115738
A good idea, SB can keep the thin scrollbar arrangement while offering more ways to interact with data; in this case MIDI.

I am for anything that increases workflow options.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:45 pm

Cool! That post could really use some replies though. :p

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:16 am

djw wrote:Cool! That post could really use some replies though. :p
Not really, it's a great idea but we can discuss here. Too many threads creates confusion. It would be really difficult for SB to manage the Feature Requests & Suggestions forum, let alone the Issues subforum and changes were made there so we don't want to create too many posts which are about the same thing.

For example, there was an idea taken from Reaper about how scrolling works there which would be great but I feel your idea would be better in practice.

For me the worst part about the scrolling arrangement is the lack of the Arrows at each end of the scroll bars, which would serve to take you back to the beginning or end of the section without so much hit and miss.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:56 am

The Reaper scrollbar idea was mine too. I think replies to feature requests are good so it's easier seen by staff. But I won't force you.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:03 am

Staff will be reading it I'm sure.

The idea that Issues and fixes will only materialize in a Version History means we must have some faith, which of course should be applied in the forum.

The fact that so many staff and external moderators provide comment (not so much quantity of comments) is always a good sign in my view.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by suntower » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:46 am

I've been reading the posts about alternatives to good ol' Windows scrollbars and my comments are:

1. Why does EVERYONE insist on coming up with c'ockamamie alternatives to the standard Windows GUI, which works just fine and has the benefit of -standardisation-. What Mac and Windows were supposed to accomplish was a =standardised= UI. Just the comfort of having things work the same way all the time is -far- more important to me than some bespoke geegaw that may be 5% 'better'.

2. I dislike ANY change which takes up more screen real estate---which is already overrun with too many doodads that I want to get rid of. IOW, I don't need 'overviews' or other -new- widgets to do what the humble, standard FAT scrollbar already gives me.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:50 am

To answer question 1, state a time when SB have ever gone back on a particular UI change.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Transistor » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:59 am

Why not just make it a selectable option: Fat/skinny/none? I know I'd like fat in the studio (super-high res 28") and skinny on the travel system ("normal" res laptop).

What I do now, is to zoom out, select new spot, and zoom in again. There has to be a better way. There _was_ a better way :)

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by raino » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:31 pm

This a thousand times
suntower wrote:1. Why does EVERYONE insist on coming up with rock alternatives to the standard Windows GUI, which works just fine and has the benefit of -standardisation-. What Mac and Windows were supposed to accomplish was a =standardised= UI. Just the comfort of having things work the same way all the time is -far- more important to me than some bespoke geegaw that may be 5% 'better'.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:06 pm

But Mac and Windows don't even use the same standards, and it's changing with the OS updates too.

For example, on Mac, there are no scroll bars visible unless you scroll and it shows the slim little bar.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Weasel » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:07 am

1. Why does EVERYONE insist on coming up with c'ockamamie alternatives to the standard Windows GUI, which works just fine and has the benefit of -standardisation-. What Mac and Windows were supposed to accomplish was a =standardised= UI. Just the comfort of having things work the same way all the time is -far- more important to me than some bespoke geegaw that may be 5% 'better'.
Could not have stated this any better.
To answer question 1, state a time when SB have ever gone back on a particular UI change.
I would say the banishment to Preferences of the universally despised "Edge Popups". I firmly believe the only reason this (and I do not use this term lightly) moronic function still exists in Preferences was to save face for the product manager who pushed it through. The saving grace is that Steinberg chose to make it Inactive as the default.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by thermionic » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:33 pm

I don't really understand all the points of view - but mine is simple, I have poor vision and I'd like to be able to see the scroll bars again. Why isn't there an option to modify scrollbar width and colour? :roll: :?:

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by suntower » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:21 am

FWIW... one reason most programs don't have such a feature is that this violates one of the basic tenets of O/S design: STANDARDISATION. O/S designers spend -thousands- of hours with big-brained researchers figuring out how to make the most usable interface and then offer -standard- widgets (like scrollbars) so that -all- programs will work THE SAME WAY.

All -I- have -ever- wanted is for Cubase (on Windows) to function according to... wait for it... the Microsoft UI developers guide, going back to 1995.

I would estimate that about 1/3 of my beefs with Cubase have NEVER been about 'reliability' or 'performance' or 'features' or all the other things people usually grouse about. MOST of my b-i-tches are that Dave Nicholson or Yvan or -whoever- seem to have this insane, almost PATHOLOGICAL NEED to re-invent the visual wheel... to make UI widgets work in novel ways, rather than just using the gizmos that Microsoft already thoughtfully provides and which already work very nicely. All the hidden this and disappearing that are -Steinberg- attempts to re-imagine things that do not need reimagining!

(Speaking of imagination: imagine all the new features and extra reliability that Cubase -might- have if all the kilocalories expended on needless UI junk were instead diverted towards the stuff people actually -clamour- for!)

Anyhoo... I wouldn't want your suggestion, simply because it's yet another violation of standardisation. But if you were cool with the good ol' fashioned Windows scrollbars? We're on the same page.

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thermionic wrote:I don't really understand all the points of view - but mine is simple, I have poor vision and I'd like to be able to see the scroll bars again. Why isn't there an option to modify scrollbar width and colour? :roll: :?:
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:27 am

All -I- have -ever- wanted is for Cubase (on Windows) to function according to... wait for it... the Microsoft UI developers guide, going back to 1995.
Cubase is not just for Windows.
djw wrote:Mac and Windows don't even use the same standards, and it's changing with the OS updates too.

For example, on Mac, there are no scroll bars visible unless you scroll and it shows the slim little bar.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by suntower » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:23 am

I don't care. I know it's a drag for the developers, but if one writes an x-platform program, it should conform to each OS as much as possible. Cubase SX was able to do this for a long time and certainly can still do so. The recent trend is by choice. IMO, it's a -crime- to make a *zebra.

*An old school software term of art for any bespoke program which attempts to combine 'the best features of all the other programs!' These usually ended up being cute mediocrities.

djw wrote:
All -I- have -ever- wanted is for Cubase (on Windows) to function according to... wait for it... the Microsoft UI developers guide, going back to 1995.
Cubase is not just for Windows.
djw wrote:Mac and Windows don't even use the same standards, and it's changing with the OS updates too.

For example, on Mac, there are no scroll bars visible unless you scroll and it shows the slim little bar.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:34 am

If it would confine to Windows 10's "Modern" guidelines then I doubt you'd like it.

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/w ... pps/design

Image

If you want it to look different from the new Microsoft standard, then you agree that Steinberg should just do their own thing that they deem best.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by Weasel » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:14 am

For example, on Mac, there are no scroll bars visible unless you scroll and it shows the slim little bar.
I beg to differ. The only time the Mac scrollbars are not visible is when Finder windows are sized bigger than the contents on either the x or y axis. In that situation, no scroll bars appear whether you scroll or not. When Finder windows are sized smaller than the content, the not so skinny scroll bars appear whether you scroll or not. And it is the same case in most professional Mac apps. Window and palette scrolling in any Adobe product is a good example. Or Logic Pro X.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by GargoyleStudio » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:56 pm

+1 for less skinny scroll handles please.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:01 pm

Weasel wrote:I beg to differ. The only time the Mac scrollbars are not visible is when Finder windows are sized bigger than the contents on either the x or y axis. In that situation, no scroll bars appear whether you scroll or not. When Finder windows are sized smaller than the content, the not so skinny scroll bars appear whether you scroll or not. And it is the same case in most professional Mac apps. Window and palette scrolling in any Adobe product is a good example. Or Logic Pro X.
I think this is a setting. With a magic mouse it doesn't show unless you scroll. See:
Mac OS X Tutorial | Scroll Bars in Finder

By default the Scroll Bars on the side and bottom of the Finder windows only appear WHEN you are scrolling.

Note:
This change will also affect your Safari web browser scroll bar.
From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO3_5sAI3rM


Even still, those are hardly bigger than the ones in Cubase.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:30 pm

Even still, those are hardly bigger than the ones in Cubase.
Well there must be trend towards skinny scrollbars whether or not they "stink" is for the end user to decide.

For me it's not so much the skinnyness but more the lack of clickable areas at either end.
Last edited by audioguy on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by -steve- » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:33 pm

audioguy wrote:For me it's not so much the skinnyness but more the lack of clickable areas at either end.
There are, but they're invisible.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by audioguy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:37 pm

SteveInChicago wrote:
audioguy wrote:For me it's not so much the skinnyness but more the lack of clickable areas at either end.
There are, but they're invisible.
Take Chrome for example, If I click on the arrows at the end it increments the page at a pre defined length but clicking anywhere along the scrollbar (besides the scroll block) increments at a ratio of the length of the page.
Last edited by audioguy on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by -steve- » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:44 pm

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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by suntower » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:53 pm

audioguy wrote: Take Chrome for example, If I click on the arrows at the end it increments the page at a pre defined length but clicking anywhere along the scrollbar (besides the scroll block) increments at a ratio of the length of the page.
And that, ladeeez and germs is the part we loves. The -ratio-. It's genius. But it only works if the scrollbar is FAT ENOUGH to be easily grabbed.

Here is how I used to work a LOT of the time: I'd start playback and keep my mouse gently hovering over the scrollbar and touch it wherever I wanted to move. I got to be a brain surgeon at navigation just by rocking the scrollbar back and forth. I'd then swoop in, do an edit or two, then re-commence playback. It was -extremely- intuitive because the mouse cursor is where I want to go in the project.

All these other ideas (the hidden widgets at the ends) aren't WHERE YOU ARE IN THE PROJECT. A fat scrollbar. What a joy.
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Re: Skinny Scrollbars Stink

Post by djw » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:01 pm

People use the scroll buttons in Chrome? That's... not the best way to go about it. Try to get used to scrolling with the scroll wheel or middle mouse button, you'll thank me later.

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