That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:15 am

That was not my understanding, the problem is that multiple instances of certain plugins taking up multiple slots opposed to others where multiple instances take one slot.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:04 pm

Raphie wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:15 am
That was not my understanding, the problem is that multiple instances of certain plugins taking up multiple slots opposed to others where multiple instances take one slot.
I don't have the knowledge to be precise on how everything works. But based on what I read, yes certain plugins (statically linked) take multiple slots but multiple instances of the same plugin do not take more slots since the dll is only loaded once
quoting Cakewalk's CTO
'In SONAR you would have to have at least about 64 unique plugins that statically linked before you saw a problem, so pretty unlikely I would think. Also multiple instances of the same plugin do not count since the dll is only loaded once.'

More info
quoting Presonus
there is a limitation on the Windows platform of how many DLLs depending on the statically-linked C runtime library
....
Depending on how many DLLs are used by the host application itself the number of additional 3rd party plug-ins that can be loaded varies.
The problem is made worse by plug-in developers also using the static version of the C runtime library.
Studio One 3.3 has been built with Visual Studio 2015 and dynamically link to the new Universal C runtime library.
This significantly increases the number of additionally loadable DLLs.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:17 pm

I read it differently:
- Windows/daw supports 64 static SLOTS
- This means 64 unique plugins
- When using multiple instances of the same plugins, some only take 1 slot, while others take a slot per instance.
Hence it's difficult to say when you hit a ceiling.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:28 pm

Raphie wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:17 pm
I read it differently:
- Windows/daw supports 64 static SLOTS
- This means 64 unique plugins
- When using multiple instances of the same plugins, some only take 1 slot, while others take a slot per instance.
Hence it's difficult to say when you hit a ceiling.
Hey Raphie. As previously stated I do not have the knowledge, maybe you are right.
We all need a tech guru or Fabio to chime in and clear things up
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:42 pm

The problem is that it's not possible to define the behaviour exactly.
Dynamically linked plug-ins should be always loaded, but once the limit is actually reached, it gets temperamental and at times you can't add any more plug-ins (or can add only specific ones).
There are plug-ins that use an abnormal amount of slots.
Some VSTs do not release the FLS slots when they are removed from the project - some don't even after closing the project, meaning it is necessary to restart the application to free them up. This also means that if you load a project after closing one containing this kind of plugs, you effectively start with less slots available (possibly the reason why some reported that after quitting Cubase, a project showing the issue opens with all inserts active)
Additionally some slots might be taken by drivers or components (e.g. our UR series) or VSTs on starting the application.

This is actually way more complex than I remembered, we have several tasks related to it, it would take a week to go through all of them. Let alone fully understand them ;)
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:21 pm

Fabio, thanks once again on clarifying things up.

With your saying, the wise thing to do when the issue comes up, is to quit Cubase before opening another project. Just to be safe not to ruin a previously unaffected project. What happens if you saved the previously unaffected project?
Unexpected behaviors, plugins using abnormal amount of slots and not releasing them before quitting Cubase.
Hitting the limit now gets even more serious than before.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:24 am

Seems as though this is still an issue even in Cubase 9.5, as per this thread: viewtopic.php?f=229&t=89644

Given up hope that Steinberg will fix this now. Another 6 months has gone by with no real update. That makes it around 2.5 years with this workflow-breaking bug. All of the fancy and nice features of Cubase 9.5 are of absolutely no use when I can't recall any of my sessions.

At this point I don't want workarounds, I want solutions. I think waiting 2.5 years for a bug of this magnitude to be fixed is honestly more than fair. If this were enough of a priority at Steinberg then it would have been resolved by now.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:46 am

skanafchian wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:24 am
Seems as though this is still an issue even in Cubase 9.5, as per this thread: viewtopic.php?f=229&t=89644

Given up hope that Steinberg will fix this now. Another 6 months has gone by with no real update. That makes it around 2.5 years with this workflow-breaking bug. All of the fancy and nice features of Cubase 9.5 are of absolutely no use when I can't recall any of my sessions.

At this point I don't want workarounds, I want solutions. I think waiting 2.5 years for a bug of this magnitude to be fixed is honestly more than fair. If this were enough of a priority at Steinberg then it would have been resolved by now.
viewtopic.php?f=250&t=123768&start=50#p690087
According to Fabio Steinberg developers are working on it. Their plan is to gradually increase the number of loadable plugins but also 3rd party developers must tackle the problem on their behalf
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:54 am

@skanafchian: please read all the threads/posts on the subject, this is not a bug in Cubase and without intervention from VST developers Steinberg can only increase the amount of available slots, not fully resolve the issue.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:50 pm

I am aware that this is not necessarily a bug within Cubase itself - but obviously this is something that can be effectively rectified by increasing the number of slots. I think you can appreciate my frustration knowing that we've waited 2.5 YEARS for a potential fix - and while I'm now hopeful about 9.5.10 - will be waiting with baited breath. As it is, 9.0 and 9.5 both perform worse than 8.5 for me and recall even less plugins.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:15 pm

I do appreciate the frustration, but I think it's key to make clear that under some circumstances, any effort on our side can be worthless if nothing changes on the VST side.
If many devices and controllers are connected, other processes run in Cubase (ReWire or other protocols) and one inserts VSTs that use up many slots (just to give a figure, can be over 30), it's pretty clear that the issue will remain.

[Edit: You are right about the recent versions using more slots on their own, 9.5.10 will use a little less, roughly in the same ballpark as 9.0]
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:26 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:15 pm
[Edit: You are right about the recent versions using more slots on their own, 9.5.10 will use a little less, roughly in the same ballpark as 9.0]
I believe that 9.0 uses more than 8.5 still - which is why I haven't made the switch over to 9.0 yet either. Is it in the plans to reduce the number of slots used to at least the number used by 8.5 in the near future?

Until I can fully recall sessions I can't even think about making the switch (and even then, the worry still remains that the projects will not allow me to add additional plugins).

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:46 pm

True also about 9.0 using more than 8.5.

The plan is to use dynamic linking application-wide, when complete it should be much, much better than 8.5.
In case you missed this viewtopic.php?f=250&t=123768&start=50#p690087, 9.5.10 will introduce it in one area of Cubase and others will follow in the next updates.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:57 pm

Okay, thanks. Sorry to hassle but I guess the next question is if we have a rough, approximate ETA on when we can see these things being rolled out? The reason I'm asking is because that is when I will know I will be able to use the newer versions of Cubase. At the moment I'm still stuck with 8.5.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Sorry, I don't know the technical details myself. If I have to be brave and write something I'll regret (it's just a bit too early), my expectation is the second patch should be at least on par with 8.5.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:32 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:06 pm
Sorry, I don't know the technical details myself. If I have to be brave and write something I'll regret (it's just a bit too early), my expectation is the second patch should be at least on par with 8.5.
Totally fair. Thank you for the updates Fabio. I hope that this can be resolved ASAP so I can finally use a newer version of Cubase. I've been stuck on 8.5 despite having purchased the updates because in it's current state the newer versions simply do not recall most of my sessions.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:34 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:06 pm
... and write something I'll regret (it's just a bit too early)
I guess this is why I prefer being cautious. I am sorry to report that the dynamic linking scheduled for 9.5.10 has been pulled (actually reversed) due to compatibility with Windows 7 :(

The rest of the schedule remains unchanged for the time being, meaning that this specific one has been moved to 9.5.20, but the fixes scheduled for 9.5.20 were not postponed to a later version.

[Moved to General, as it's no longer a presales thread]
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by zipb » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:49 am

This is of no concern for Mac users? I have no problems opening tons of different plug ins on my Hack...
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Steve1977 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:13 pm

Is anyone else considering selling off their UAD plugs on the back of this? I'm not upset with anyone, it's just one of those things, but my workflow relies on a lot of UAD plug, Windows and steinberg products, so something has to give.
From the sound of it, this isn't going to be fixed anytime soon and like a lot of you, I have paid projects that need working on today.
Objectively it seems to be a choice between:

1.Scrapping my Windows PC and getting a Mac or Hackintosh. Tempting in one way, but this would cost me thousands.
2. Selling off my UAD satellite, PCI and plugs and replacing the UAD in my templates with stock steinberg plugs I already own and Waves etc which doesn't seem to be so badly effected. This would actually make me some money.
3. Trying a different DAW. Problem with that is I'm heavily invested in steinbergs workflow, I use the latest Cubase, Sonic, Wavelab etc etc..and apart from this issue I'm really happy with their products. I don't think it's necessarily their fault either and it just seems a lot of trouble to migrate.
4. Just waiting it out.

Just as an experiment, I just went through my go to Template for Song Production and replaced all the UAD plugs with Steinberg. I'm not going to lie, it's not as good in some cases, but in a lot, it would more than get you by.
I replaced the UAD Studer tape with magneto III, UAD 1176 with the new Vintage compressor and tried parallel compression with the Steinberg Tube instead of the UAD LA2.
If you're not that bothered about recreating accurate vintage distortion, it does the job if you're willing to tinker.
The UAD EMT140 is a better reverb than the Steinberg Reverance, but the reverence is very versatile. I replaced the UAD Studio D with a cubase Stereo Chorus dialed in my subtlety and it was pretty close.
It's making me think.

Would any of you think about selling off the UAD stuff or wait this out and see if this gets sorted ?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:39 pm

@Fabio
very sad to hear we have to wait until 9.5.20 for an improvement

@Steve1977
I don't own any UAD stuff but fair point. You can keep UAD and wait (remember UAD must do their bit). Finding alternatives at least for some of those UAD may help you avoid the limit. We all adapted our workflows one way or another so we avoid/postpone hitting the limit.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Romantique Tp » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Replacing your UAD plugins isn't a bad idea. Many developers are offering excellent emulations these days.

I would recommend checking out DMG Audio's TrackComp. It emulates the 1176LN D, LA-2A, SSL E-Channel and SSL G-Bus compressors very accurately, and also fully supports Cubase's new 64 bit audio engine, reducing CPU usage.
Steve1977 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:13 pm

The UAD EMT140 is a better reverb than the Steinberg Reverance, but the reverence is very versatile.
These are very different kinds of reverbs so I don't think they're directly comparable.

The EMT is based on a physical device.

REVerence is a convolution reverb. If you don't like the stock sounds you can load custom impulse responses made by yourself or downloaded from the internet. Generally you'll be using this for "duller" realistic reverbs.

REVelation is an algorithmic reverb that's inspired by vintage digital units such as the Lexicon 480. It's capable of a "hyped" sound that's suitable for most modern music genres. Again it's very different from the EMT plugin, but it should be usable in similar contexts.
Last edited by Romantique Tp on Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Steve1977 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:44 pm

Romantique Tp wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:33 pm
Replacing your UAD plugins isn't a bad idea. Many developers are offering excellent emulations these days.

I would recommend checking out DMG Audio's TrackComp. It emulates the 1176LN D, LA-2A, SSL E-Channel and SSL G-Bus compressors very accurately, and also fully supports Cubase's new 64 bit audio engine, reducing CPU usage.
Steve1977 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:13 pm

The UAD EMT140 is a better reverb than the Steinberg Reverance, but the reverence is very versatile.
These are very different kinds of reverbs so I don't think they're directly comparable.

The EMT is based on a physical device.

REVerence is a convolution reverb. If you don't like the stock sounds you can load custom impulse responses made by yourself or downloaded from the internet. Generally you'll be using this for "duller" realistic reverbs.

REVelation is an algorithmic reverb that's inspired by vintage digital units such as the Lexicon 224. It's capable of a "hyped" sound that's suitable for most modern music genres. Again it's very different from the EMT plugin, but it should be usable in similar contexts.

Hi! Thanks for the tip on the plug ins. I'll look into them.

You're totally right about the EMT 40. I wasn't very clear. What I meant to say was that I'd compared the Revelations plate reverb settings against similar settings in the UAD one. Tinkered until they had same eq, tails eq. But you're right, your point still stands. The Revelation is way more versatile.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by medwaystudios » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 pm

Just use jbridge. Sort of a pain but lets you load as many as you need, this includes UAD and all the other affected plugins like Soundtoys etc...
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:34 am

No chance I can give up the UAD plugs unfortunately...super critical to my workflow.

@Fabio - just so I'm clear, does this mean that the features previously scheduled for 9.5.20 are still going to be coming at that time? Meaning that basically, the increase in the number of plugins that we should be able to load are going to be as previously scheduled from 9.5.20 onwards.

9.5.10 wasn't going to be enough to fix my issues anyway...so I was planning on waiting until 9.5.20 regardless before giving it a go.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:19 pm

Hi,

yes, 9.5.20 should include what was initially scheduled plus the one that didn't make to 9.5.10.
In short, only 9.5.10 is affected by the road-map change.
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