That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:43 pm

Well, the problem is that the "loadable point" differs for some reasons, as others mentioned in similar threads as well.. that means: 12h mixing session, everything works fine, the other day some plugins are missing because they will not load. Most likely you will not notice in bigger projects.

My projects are often about 60 min long with 500+ tracks (processing usually mainly on groups - and with VST3 processing only when there is audio this is not a problem) - but that way I run easily in this problem.

But yes, there are some strategies to not suffer tooo bad from this issue but there is no real workaround.

One strategy is even "don't overprocess" - which might enable you to deliver better mixes with less processing, often using only basic tools like EQ/Dyn (in my case using Sonnox or Fabfilter (which btw loads fine all the time)) - without processing the sh*t out of each track using fancy saturation/coloration/vintage stuff etc...
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:50 pm

I like the "you will not notice" in bigger projects :) that's a funny point, process the heck out of stuff and then don't notice it's turned off :)
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:10 pm

Raphie wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:50 pm
I like the "you will not notice" in bigger projects :) that's a funny point, process the heck out of stuff and then don't notice it's turned off :)

Well, lets have a 60 min Project with lets say 500 tracks.. Track 456 is just a short sound, lets say an explosion, or some kind of percussion or just a short sample, speech or whatever - wich appears at lets say Min 46:34.

You worked 7 days on the mix, the other day you just have to do a quick modification - lets say adjusting some vocal automation in the first half of that session.. You will now export the whole thing again. Will you notice that this slap-back delay on the sample at 46:34 is missing? Only when you spend one hour CAREFULLY listening to EVERYTHING again...

A useful way to "prove" if anything is like it should is (in my experience) - "save-as" - just right after opening that session, without having touched anything so far.. the project file size should be exact the same size than the one you opened. If the file is a bit smaller most likely something is missing.
Another way to prove this (well there is no 100% prove) is to have lats say an UAD plugin on the Mixbus, a group at the very LAST of the tracks - NOT the main out.. The Main out will load at first, then all channels, groups etc... the last track in the mixer will be loaded at last. When that plugin (UADplugs for example likes to disappear) is missing - then you have to better close / reopen the session.. Sometimes this can need quite some tries.. and even reboots.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:14 pm

Phhh sounds like a nightmare with these kind of projects.... :(

Why don't you freeze/render what you are happy with to commit/protect/unload/make space?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:29 pm

well most processing I do on groups/busses so freezing / render is not an option, but that sample at 46:36, yes - sometimes I just render stuff like that.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:59 pm

Hi,

the plug-ins not loading are theoretically those who need attention and dynamic linking. Does not matter if they are old or not, but how they link to the library (the limitation itself exists since XP, IIRC - it was just difficult to hit it with a Pentium 4 ;) )

As per the ways of dealing with the issue, GerogeV just linked this post which explains the behaviour pretty well:
viewtopic.php?f=229&t=89644#p665877

Maybe the last part especially gives hints on how to circumvent the problem, for example by reducing the amount of unique plug-ins - which is kind of my workflow and probably the reason why I personally never stomped on this issue (I tend to use the same plugs, for example SSL Channel E on all audio tracks, Pro-G on all drums, Portico on all groups, etc.). I don't know to which extent this approach is possible for you (Brandy).
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:14 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:59 pm
Hi,

the plug-ins not loading are theoretically those who need attention and dynamic linking. Does not matter if they are old or not, but how they link to the library (the limitation itself exists since XP, IIRC - it was just difficult to hit it with a Pentium 4 ;) )

As per the ways of dealing with the issue, GerogeV just linked this post which explains the behaviour pretty well:
viewtopic.php?f=229&t=89644#p665877

Maybe the last part especially gives hints on how to circumvent the problem, for example by reducing the amount of unique plug-ins - which is kind of my workflow and probably the reason why I personally never stomped on this issue (I tend to use the same plugs, for example SSL Channel E on all audio tracks, Pro-G on all drums, Portico on all groups, etc.). I don't know to which extent this approach is possible for you (Brandy).
I want to base my future purchases on whether they statically link this C library or not. I tried using a software called Dependency Walker, but it didn't make clear to me which ones did it. Is there a way to find this out?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:52 am
@djw: VST3 could be considered 'container files' which can also hold various versions of a plug-in (e.g. mono, stereo, multi-channel...a good example is Cubase's own plug-ins set, a single file containing all of the plug-ins). Saying this without considering the different protocol, features set, etc.
I didn't know about that difference. So inside of it there can be multiple DLL files? I indeed noticed Cubase's stock VST3 plugins are all in one file now you mention it.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:26 pm

djw wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:14 pm
Is there a way to find this out?
I don't know if it's possible using WPA or other (perhaps not THAT complex) tools.
Will check with the devs.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:31 pm

djw wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:24 pm
I didn't know about that difference. So inside of it there can be multiple DLL files? I indeed noticed Cubase's stock VST3 plugins are all in one file now you mention it.
Yes, that's the reason why you usually have a single .vst3 file in place of a mono and a stereo VST2 .dll (just as an example, DMG Audio Compassion comes with a mono, a stereo and a side-chain VST2 version, but only one .vst3 file).
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:36 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:31 pm
djw wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:24 pm
I didn't know about that difference. So inside of it there can be multiple DLL files? I indeed noticed Cubase's stock VST3 plugins are all in one file now you mention it.
Yes, that's the reason why you usually have a single .vst3 file in place of a mono and a stereo VST2 .dll (just as an example, DMG Audio Compassion comes with a mono, a stereo and a side-chain VST2 version, but only one .vst3 file).
I learn something new every day. ^-^; But none of this affects the VST slot limit right? Could a new VST3 standard prohibit static linking..?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:39 pm

Thanks Fabio,

Using the same plugins several times ie have a low amount of unique plugins is the way to go.

However, we need more info on the subject and specifically on dynamically vs statically linked plugins.

Based on what Cakewalk CTO says, now for the first time we have a number "at least 64" unique plugins statically linked.
OK in Cubase this number might be different, this a number for Sonar, not trying to compare here, trying to head somewhere.

What if statically linked plugins are preferred/replaced by dynamically linked plugins in a project?
Would that allow more unique plugins to be loaded?
Could someone state or identify which vendors are linking statically?
Is there a way to find out ourselves which of our plugins are linked statically?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:46 pm

Fabio, thanks - good information! Yes, this is part of my workflow in bigger projects as well! Makes mixing more easy / console style using basically the same plugins. But well, most of us (at least me) are owning almost every single plugin available on the market ^^ so often - when the good part of a mix is already set up - you start to get creative, having lets say some whispering in an athmo part, so lets use one or two Soundtoys plugins here for fancy delay effects and a Waves Reel for some flanging.. easily you will step over the limitation issue at some point...

Haha and yes, back to a P4 vintage system!! :)
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:46 pm

djw wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:36 pm
But none of this affects the VST slot limit right? Could a new VST3 standard prohibit static linking..?
Beyond my knowledge, but I do believe this is out of the DAW and VST SDK control.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:57 pm

GeorgeV wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:39 pm
Based on what Cakewalk CTO says, now for the first time we have a number "at least 64" unique plugins statically linked.
OK in Cubase this number might be different, this a number for Sonar, not trying to compare here, trying to head somewhere.
I seem to recall a similar amount in Cubase, but can't remember exactly (we also lowered the amount of slots used by Cubase already, so something might have changed... but then again, Cubase 9 has added functionality).
Will check.
GeorgeV wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:39 pm
What if statically linked plugins are preferred/replaced by dynamically linked plugins in a project?
Would that allow more unique plugins to be loaded?
To my understanding, definitely yes.
GeorgeV wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:39 pm
Could someone state or identify which vendors are linking statically?
I would need to check if someone can compile sort of a list and if publishing it is deemed 'correct' or not.
GeorgeV wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:39 pm
Is there a way to find out ourselves which of our plugins are linked statically?
Same as above: I don't know if it's possible using WPA or other (perhaps not THAT complex) tools.
Will check with the devs.
:-)
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:20 pm

Fabio,
First, I cannot thank you enough for clarifying everything up.
Fabio Bartolini wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:57 pm
GeorgeV wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:39 pm
Could someone state or identify which vendors are linking statically?
I would need to check if someone can compile sort of a list and if publishing it is deemed 'correct' or not.
I don't see anything wrong here.
At least I wouldn't "blacklist" a statically linked plugin. I know I can use many statically linked ones (around 64) in a project.
But OK. What if we do it they way around. If someone can identify the vendors who link dynamically.
We all need some more info here. It would be helpful to identify the limitations and finish our projects at the end of the day.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:36 pm

I heard using jbridge to for example bridge the UAD plugins might help because then the processes will be "outside" of Cubase.exe...

Everyone tried this yet? I do not like to go back to jbridge again (though it is an brilliant app) - was using this for ages while waiting for 64bit versions...
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:43 pm

I would be interested in knowing the vendor list privately if one is compiled.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:52 pm

@GeorgeV: I don't see anything wrong, too. But we tend to avoid 'pointing the finger', I just need to check with those in charge.
I get your point entirely and can relate to the need of knowing this.

@Brandy: I think that is the case, yes. IIRC, there were users that tried it and confirmed on this forum.

@djw: I don't think there is an actual list (if yes, it's surely incomplete), but for sure we identified some.
Let me check what we can do here.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:29 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:52 pm
@GeorgeV: I don't see anything wrong, too. But we tend to avoid 'pointing the finger', I just need to check with those in charge.
I get your point entirely and can relate to the need of knowing this.
...
@djw: I don't think there is an actual list (if yes, it's surely incomplete), but for sure we identified some.
Let me check what we can do here.
Thanks again Fabio. Your efforts are highly appreciated.

I suppose when the limit is reached, no unique plugins can be loaded. Is this the case? Is this regardless dynamic vs static?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:58 pm

A list - or "some kind of a list" would definitive be VERY helpful - as someone mentioned - we all need to finish work, catch deadlines etc.. I am currently mixing one full album per week over here. Since this "issue" is on the one hand side one of the ugliest issues we experienced through the last couple of years it is fortunately "relatively" easy to handle if we have some more detailed knowledge regarding these plugins. If that list can not be made public I would appreciate to access it via PM or something.. though when a list would be public some plugin developer might have some motivation to modify their plugins :)

But I am not sure if I can confirm the possibility to still load more plugins as long as it is not an unique plugin and already in the session.. What I did is copy/paste (via drag n drop) instances of plugins, which seems to work - selecting them in the plugin menue might not load them. But I had issues with that "workaround" since these "drag n dropped" plugins might be missing the other day ..
Last edited by Brandy on Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:58 pm

GeorgeV wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:29 pm


Thanks again Fabio. Your efforts are highly appreciated.
Absolutely! Thanks a lot!!
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:22 pm

Thanks :-)
Let me check again the various entries on the subject and post back tomorrow... it's a while since I worked on that and can't access that system from home. Will post back.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by alexis » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:11 pm

Raphie wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:27 pm
I don't think there is any other way to reverse engineer or deduct if plugins load or not, besides just testing them one by one.
The good news is you only have to worry about it once it happens and you only have to focus on the 3rd pty plugins you actually used in that project.

Another way to look at it is not to prepopulate templates with plugins and empty channels which you don't use.
If you create templates with 32 channels and each channel has already your favorite EQ, compressor, channelstrip, VU meter and gain knob loaded, that's already 160 plugins before you even get to work (and half might just sit there not being used)


It's an annoyance, but by adapting the way one works, it can quite easily be avoided
If they are inactivated, do they contribute to the total count/limitation?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:12 am

alexis wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:11 pm
Raphie wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:27 pm
Another way to look at it is not to prepopulate templates with plugins and empty channels which you don't use.
If you create templates with 32 channels and each channel has already your favorite EQ, compressor, channelstrip, VU meter and gain knob loaded, that's already 160 plugins before you even get to work (and half might just sit there not being used)


It's an annoyance, but by adapting the way one works, it can quite easily be avoided
If they are inactivated, do they contribute to the total count/limitation?
I don't know if inactivated plugins contribute to this limitation. And still, but less importantly, we don't know the maximum number of unique plugins with dynamically linked libraries but anyway.

But just to clarify something once again, the limitation is regarding about the number of unique plugins. If a specific EQ is loaded in every single channel ie 32 times it will take only one slot. The problem occurs when every channel has different/unique plugins loaded. And if those plugins are all statically linked the limit is reached at (around) 64 unique plugins.

Worst case scenario is to have at least say
10 unique VST instruments (loaded x times - doesn't matter)
10 unique EQs
10 compressors
5 reverbs
5 delays
5 distortions
5 filters
10 modulations
4 other plugins
= 64 unique modules

ALL with statically linked libraries.

That's when the limit is reached and plugins disappear or refuse to load or whatever...
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