That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:59 am

Thanks Fabio.

One thing I've noticed is that on Cubase 9 it appears as though less plugins are able to load. When I load the same project on Cubase 8, I don't seem to find issues but on the latest version it seems like numerous plugins are missing.

Is there a reason for this, or a way I can at least get Cubase 9 to work like Cubase 8?

I know it isn't your fault - and there's not much you can do to help - but this bug is honestly so, so frustrating. :( It's cost me many tens of hours (without exaggeration). I just wish there was some fix already.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:04 am

Bump :)

Would love to get a response on this. As it stands, I basically have to use Cubase 8 instead of 9 because I have an even less number of plugins I can load with Cubase 9...

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:50 am

Hi,

sorry, missed this one. There shouldn't be much difference between the two versions of Cubase, but some new features (e.g. the Sampler Track) might have increased slightly the amount of dll used up by Cubase.
Let me confirm with development if this is the case.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Fri May 12, 2017 7:38 pm

Any news on the matter Fabio?
Thanks btw for your tip on moving those dlls.
Now I'm able to work with my project. Still limiting but using plugins already used in the project may help me finish.
First time happened was with C9.0.1.
Is 9.0.2 better/different?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:27 pm

I've all but given up hope of this issue being rectified. I'm resorting to using Cubase 8 because 9 seems to use up more dlls, and therefore I'm stuck with even smaller projects!!

I understand that it isn't solely Steinberg's responsibility here, and that Microsoft are involved in a fix. But this is a serious issue that has been ongoing for over 2 years now. (This post here dates back to March 2015: viewtopic.php?f=226&t=77564&p=557119#p557119)

That seems quite absurd.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:11 am

Thing is that you don't know exactly when it will happen. And worst of all, you might have the problem without realizing it until you finally notice something odd.

Another strange behavior, the only 2 sampler tracks I had in that busy project where oddly disabled. In other words I've never disabled them, they became disabled, just like that. Trying to enable them or adding another sampler track gave errors and crashes, so I had to dump using sampler tracks in that project and work alternatively.

That "disappearing" plugin thing dictates the way you mix, the way you think and how you process your channels etc. Another restriction besides system resources.

I feel Microsoft will not fix the problem any time soon. I believe it's not on top of their priorities, maybe they'll never fix something like that.
So it's up to Steinberg and other DAW/plugin developers to at least improve the situation...
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:06 am

This sentence sums it up: "And worst of all, you might have the problem without realizing it until you finally notice something odd."

The number of times I've had this occur is beyond recollection. I've only noticed that there's something audibly wrong with the mix...only to discover that actually a ton of the work I had done had just been deleted.

I don't know how else to raise my concerns about this to DAW manufacturers, but this is a bug that simply must be a priority fix. 2 years without a resolution, and the bug is an absolute game-changer.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by alexis » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:14 pm

Hello - I see this info is spread over at least three threads in the forum, with somewhat inconsistent information spread among them.

Would someone be kind enough to please re-state the problem for me (or any other folks who come later) as it stands now?

Much appreciated -
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:56 pm

Hi alexis -

Absolutely. The issue is that on large projects, which use a large number of different plugins, Cubase eventually hits a 'cap' and no other new plugins can be added. This has 2 effects -

1 - No additional new plugins can be added to a project
2 - Project recall may delete / remove plugins over the 'cap', meaning that accurate session recall is compromised. I have had projects load that sound dramatically different than how I had saved them because a number of plugins are now missing, and cannot be re-added.

To clarify, #1 generally only applies to plugins that have not been used in the session previously (for example, if I had used FabFilter Pro-C elsewhere in the project, I will be able to use another instance of it - but not a new plugin I haven't used elsewhere).

According to fabio, this is due to the number of seperate dll's being used by Cubase. One way to 'increase' the number of plugins you're able to use is by moving some of the non-essential dll's out of the Cubase folder. I've done so - but it appears Cubase 9 is actually even worse than 8 because it has additional features (such as the Sampler Track). As a result, I'm still stuck using Cubase 8.

This only seems to affect users on Windows - but is a very serious issue. It has lost me literally upwards of tens of hours. I have had entire projects load sounding dramatically different than how I had left them. We've waited over 2 years for some movement on a fix but still nothing has been resolved.

I'm trying my best to be understanding. I know that it appears Steinberg cannot resolve this problem on their own and that they have to work with Microsoft on a fix. But how long must we wait? I can't even use the latest version of Cubase - which I have paid for!! - because of this bug.

Hope that clarifies.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by GeorgeV » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:55 am

skanafchian wrote: The issue is that on large projects, which use a large number of different plugins, Cubase eventually hits a 'cap' and no other new plugins can be added. This has 2 effects -

1 - No additional new plugins can be added to a project
2 - Project recall may delete / remove plugins over the 'cap', meaning that accurate session recall is compromised. I have had projects load that sound dramatically different than how I had saved them because a number of plugins are now missing, and cannot be re-added.
Perfect description by skanafchian.

Adding to that, plugins disappear randomly, unpredictably and without any notice. As stated before, you don't really know unless you hear something odd.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by skanafchian » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:41 pm

Still no update guys?

I have to say I'm very disappointed. And we've been incredibly patient, having waited over 2 years for a fix.

I cannot financially support Steinberg when a bug of this magnitude still exists and appears to not be a priority. I stupidly purchased Cubase 9 thinking that maybe - just maybe - it would fix the problem. Ironically, it makes things worse and I can't even use Cubase 9 at all because it destroys even more projects than Cubase 8.

I won't be spending another penny until this issue has been 100% resolved. Perhaps my business is more welcome elsewhere.

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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:18 am

The latest update is here: viewtopic.php?p=664654#p664654
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:42 am

Reading this thread, not experiencing this issue myself, I see 2 solutions:
1. Make a blacklist of lazy plugin manufacturs, contact them and explain that their plugins are not programmed up to the latest standards.
2. Only use plugins that don't have this problem, or rationalise usage (I.e. don't build humongous mixer templates with 6 plugs per channel for 32 channels, but Deploy as you go, use send returns where applicable etc.

It's annoying for some for sure, but the above suggestions are a lot more productive than barking against the wrong tree here.
As Fabio has explained many times, it's an MS framework/developer guidance issue, not a Steinberg issue, it's outside their control.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:38 pm

Raphie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:42 am
Reading this thread, not experiencing this issue myself, I see 2 solutions:
1. Make a blacklist of lazy plugin manufacturs, contact them and explain that their plugins are not programmed up to the latest standards.
How can we know which plugins have the issue?
Raphie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:42 am
2. Only use plugins that don't have this problem, or rationalise usage (I.e. don't build humongous mixer templates with 6 plugs per channel for 32 channels, but Deploy as you go, use send returns where applicable etc.
Multiple of the same plugins won't take up more slots, afaik.
Raphie wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:42 am
As Fabio has explained many times, it's an MS framework/developer guidance issue, not a Steinberg issue, it's outside their control.
When I Google, I just can't find the same complaint for other DAWs. That might be because their userbases uses it differently however.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:50 pm

By just removing the plugin and see what happens? You need to reverse engineer the behaviour and deduct from there.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:19 pm

Any (statically linked?) plugin can be the one to send it over the "edge" of having too many linked libraries, I believe. You wouldn't know which one the big offender is.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:17 pm

It's either that, or keep on raising the issue here, till the cows come home.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:58 am

djw wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:38 pm
When I Google, I just can't find the same complaint for other DAWs. That might be because their userbases uses it differently however.
http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/ar ... on-Windows

But every DAW will hit the limitation differently.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:15 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:58 am
djw wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:38 pm
When I Google, I just can't find the same complaint for other DAWs. That might be because their userbases uses it differently however.
http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/ar ... on-Windows

But every DAW will hit the limitation differently.
I don't know why I didn't find that before. I wish Windows wasn't designed with a limit like that...
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:51 pm

Since there are quite a lot of these threads dealing with this issue:

Any news here?

- I do not get the "dll" thing completely - what's up with VST3? I have these issues with VST3 plugins as well.. but there are no dlls .. ?
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by djw » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:51 pm

I believe .vst3 files are just renamed DLLs.

EDIT: See Fabio's reply.
Last edited by djw on Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:25 pm

ok that was my intention as well..
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:52 am

@ Brandy: there are not many news, unfortunately, as I wrote elsewhere "Most work on our side is done (but still ongoing). Plug-in developers will need to load runtime libraries differently in order to fully resolve this."

@djw: VST3 could be considered 'container files' which can also hold various versions of a plug-in (e.g. mono, stereo, multi-channel...a good example is Cubase's own plug-ins set, a single file containing all of the plug-ins). Saying this without considering the different protocol, features set, etc.
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Brandy » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:57 am

Thanks, Fabio!

As we all know that for some reasons certain plugins WILL open / load when others will not, this should (at least in theory) possible to fix within the plugins?

For example I never had problems with Sonnox Plugins (and they are old!!) - I do not have problems with Cubase Stock Plugins, I never had problems with for example Waves CLA 2A - while the CLA 3A will NOT load anymore.. I would be under the impression these are plugins built with the same "technique" - but I can load hundreds of 2As will 3As and most other Waves plugins will not load anymore..
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Re: That "disappearing" plugin thing; still in C9?

Post by Raphie » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:27 pm

I don't think there is any other way to reverse engineer or deduct if plugins load or not, besides just testing them one by one.
The good news is you only have to worry about it once it happens and you only have to focus on the 3rd pty plugins you actually used in that project.

Another way to look at it is not to prepopulate templates with plugins and empty channels which you don't use.
If you create templates with 32 channels and each channel has already your favorite EQ, compressor, channelstrip, VU meter and gain knob loaded, that's already 160 plugins before you even get to work (and half might just sit there not being used)

It's an annoyance, but by adapting the way one works, it can quite easily be avoided
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