Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
Post Reply
User avatar
stefanorabaglia
New Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:47 pm
Contact:

Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by stefanorabaglia »

I have a piece for orchestra with two clarinets starting in C. They are correctly condensed.
When they change to A Clarinet it's impossible to get them condensed.
When they retutn to C clarinet they are condensed again.

Thank you very much in advance.
Stefano Rabaglia
Stefano Rabaglia
composer and conductor

User avatar
pianoleo
Grand Master
Posts: 8410
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:17 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by pianoleo »

Indeed. This is a current limitation of condensing, and it is documented (for instance) here.

One common workaround is to hand your two A clarinets to two separate players, then assign those players to the C clarinet part layouts. This way the correct music will appear in the correct parts, and both sets of clarinets will condense in the score. The downside to this method is that you'll have to deal with instrument changes manually, as text.
Pianist/accompanist/engraver/arranger
2019 Macbook Pro 16" 2.3gGHz 8-core i9, 32GB RAM,
2015 Macbook Pro 13" Retina 3.1GHz dual-core i7, 8GB RAM; running Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro X, Dorico Pro 3.5 etc.
& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
Sibelius user since Sibelius 7 (Acorn, 1997), Ex-Sibelius user since Dorico 1.0

User avatar
stefanorabaglia
New Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by stefanorabaglia »

Thank you so much!
A workaround is exactly what I was looking for, because I need to finish my project as soon as possible.
All the best.
Stefano
Stefano Rabaglia
composer and conductor

User avatar
RedtideMusic
Member
Posts: 363
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by RedtideMusic »

Sorry but why in the world would you ever compose for a C clarinet? Do you actually have two players with that instrument? Former professional clarinetist and never saw one, nor knew anybody with the slightest interest. It was considered a historical failure because the tone didn't match the Bb and A. It's surprising what a half step can to, my A is a throaty monster compared to the Bb. A step and a half further up? That would be thin indeed - better to play the Eb. Which by the way has a great lower register, if the player has one with good tuning.
"Dorico is not only a writing partner, but also a composition partner." Paolo

Dorico 3.5, Cubase 11, clarinet (Bb, A & Eb Buffet), piano (Walter 6'5) and a bunch of Moog (Semi modular line)

Rob Tuley
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 4093
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 12:41 am

Re: Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by Rob Tuley »

RedtideMusic wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:00 pm
... the tone didn't match the Bb and A.
… which is precisely why Bizet, Tchaikovsky, Smetana, Dvořák, Brahms, Mahler, Wagner, Richard Strauss, etc explicitly wrote for it, after it had supposedly "gone out of favour".

(In one Wagner score he specifies a change from Bb to C clarinet for just 8 bars and then back to Bb, precisely because of the different tone colour).

User avatar
RedtideMusic
Member
Posts: 363
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by RedtideMusic »

I didn't say it was never used but again, good luck finding one. The only I find are oddballs and student instruments. My point is I would dread finding that in a score and would either ignore it if I could and transpose (if the key wasn't too bad), or just not play the piece. What a clarinetist would enjoy would be somebody with the insight to use the Eb in the lower register for similiar color change. That 'efer' seems to always be used as a screecher (OK I didn't plan that)
"Dorico is not only a writing partner, but also a composition partner." Paolo

Dorico 3.5, Cubase 11, clarinet (Bb, A & Eb Buffet), piano (Walter 6'5) and a bunch of Moog (Semi modular line)

rkrentzman
Junior Member
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by rkrentzman »

RedtideMusic wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:26 pm
I didn't say it was never used but again, good luck finding one. The only I find are oddballs and student instruments. My point is I would dread finding that in a score and would either ignore it if I could and transpose (if the key wasn't too bad), or just not play the piece. What a clarinetist would enjoy would be somebody with the insight to use the Eb in the lower register for similiar color change. That 'efer' seems to always be used as a screecher (OK I didn't plan that)
There are plenty of professional C clarinets available: Buffet, Amati, Wurlitzer and Patricola to name a few. A while ago I played Mendelssohn 5 using a C clarinet and have also played Symphonie Fantastique using one (blends great with E-flat!). A friend of mine plays in LA Opera orchestra and tells me they use their C instruments quite a bit, especially in Rossini.

I have to disagree with your assessment of E-flat usage. It doesn't always have to screech - listen to Bolero or Shostakovich 6. Even in loud passages you want to tone it down a bit (unless it's a solo) so it blends better with flute and piccolo.
Dorico 3.5.10, Finale 25, Sibelius 2020.3
Windows 10

User avatar
RedtideMusic
Member
Posts: 363
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Condensing clarinets with changing transposition

Post by RedtideMusic »

rkrentzman wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:54 pm
There are plenty of professional C clarinets available: Buffet
So it is, didn't know that. Well I still wouldn't take kindly to being asked to drop $8k on a new clarinet! I remember when I got my first Bb/A for a mere $1k (OK that was a small fortune back then)
I have to disagree with your assessment of E-flat usage. It doesn't always have to screech - listen to Bolero or Shostakovich 6. Even in loud passages you want to tone it down a bit (unless it's a solo) so it blends better with flute and piccolo.
It was tongue in cheek :D I've played it plenty of times including Capriccio Espagnole which is a hairy ride.
"Dorico is not only a writing partner, but also a composition partner." Paolo

Dorico 3.5, Cubase 11, clarinet (Bb, A & Eb Buffet), piano (Walter 6'5) and a bunch of Moog (Semi modular line)

Post Reply

Return to “Dorico”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Michael Good, pianoleo and 4 guests