[SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

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[SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by tbabcock123 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:52 am

is there a way of avoiding the following?
Screen Shot 2019-12-04 at 8.46.20 PM.png
(26.62 KiB) Not downloaded yet
thanks for the help!

-t

solution: within Engrave mode, there is an option in the the properties panel for the alignment of the lyric text. choosing 'left' solves the problem.

i guess i'm left wondering why Dorico doesn't automatically prevent any lyric from impinging a bar line.

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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by pianoleo » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:55 am

With real lyrics on real vocal stave, lyrics never would impinge barlines because vocal staves never have joining barlines. If you’re going to use lyrics as a workaround for something else, then...
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by tbabcock123 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:27 am

pianoleo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:55 am
With real lyrics on real vocal stave, lyrics never would impinge barlines because vocal staves never have joining barlines. If you’re going to use lyrics as a workaround for something else, then...
interesting analysis. how in God's name does Dorico know that I'm not using a 'real' lyric? shouldn't the algorithm interpret anything placed as a lyric 'lyrically'?

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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by BassoContinuo » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:32 am

Dorico knows that the player is not a singer. (No, it does not analyze the text.)
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by benwiggy » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:24 am

If you were to use a Text object (Shift X), then you would have the option to add a white background.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by tbabcock123 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:15 pm

BassoContinuo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:32 am
Dorico knows that the player is not a singer. (No, it does not analyze the text.)
Thank you! That makes sense. But it's not the entire answer. In a vocal score where the choice is made to have barlines connect through the staves the bad behavior persists. Also, it's not a lyrics font issue.

Campania as lyrics font:
Screen Shot 2019-12-05 at 6.36.42 AM.png
(119.04 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Academico as lyrics font:
Screen Shot 2019-12-05 at 6.38.49 AM.png
(35.36 KiB) Not downloaded yet
And now I better understand Pianoleo's comment above.

still...

It would be nice to have an elegant solution to enable a white background where lyrics overlap barlines.

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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by pianoleo » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:18 pm

rock wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:15 pm
In a vocal score where the choice is made to have barlines connect through the staves
Find a reputable publisher that actually does this. (Clue: it’s bad practice).
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:10 pm

If you find yourself needing to white out the area behind lyrics because the barlines are getting in the way, it really suggests you should follow the standard convention of not having barlines join vocal staves./

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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by tbabcock123 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:36 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:10 pm
If you find yourself needing to white out the area behind lyrics because the barlines are getting in the way, it really suggests you should follow the standard convention of not having barlines join vocal staves./
Ok. Point taken. But I'm not doing a vocal score and I'm using the lyric line to input harmonic analysis. I guess this rankles some Dorico users.

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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by pianoleo » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:20 am

The point I was trying to make was that expecting lyrics to avoid barlines is a bit like expecting the fingering popover to accept any integer: it makes sense if you’re misusing the fingering functionality to mark beats or count repeated bars, but not if you’re using it for fingering.

Presumably when functionality is added to deal with harmonic analysis (lumped in with figured bass?) this side of things will be taken care of, but in the meantime if you’re going to employ workarounds, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect to have to do some of the grunt work yourself.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by Derrek » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:38 pm

This also assumed harmonic analysis symbols must be between staves. When I recall doing them, I marked them below the bottom staff (or above the top).
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by tbabcock123 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:59 pm

[quote]This also assumed harmonic analysis symbols must be between staves. When I recall doing them, I marked them below the bottom staff (or above the top).[/quote]

yes. but there are cases where I have to put the analysis between staves.

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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by Jazzisfaction » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:47 pm

I'm sorry guys, but I do not fully agree with you.

I'm writing for double choir.
1) it's useful that every singer sees the other voices
2) it's much more well-arranged, if I connect the staves of choir 1 and the staves of choir 2 - both being on the same page....I can immediately see what is which choir.

And here I really have the problem that my lyrics are not whitening the barlines. I have to move quite some words manually to avoid this.

And in this case it would be really nice to have the same possibilities than with text.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:04 pm

As to point 1, I don't see what this has to do with connecting the barlines between vocal staves.
As to point 2, IMHO you can better make the division between choirs 1 & 2 clear by increasing the vertical spacing between the staves of the two choirs than by connecting the barlines within the choir staves. The latter can really make a mess, especially when it forces unnatural spacing of the music (which can be enough of a problem with lyrics as it is).
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by benwiggy » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:26 pm

Having been a choral singer for over 40 years, I'd say that barlines through vocal staves are always annoying and unwelcome, and impart no useful information or context.
It's very easy to display two or more choirs clearly and distinctly without resorting to that.

However, don't take my word for it:

Elaine Gould, Behind Bars, p. 463: "Each vocal staff always has separate barlines, to avoid intersecting the text."

Schirmer Style Guide, p. 21: "The common exception to this rule is vocal and choral music ... this is done to keep the barline from interfering with the text."

Ted Ross, The Art of Music Engraving, p. 152 "vocal ensemble and hymn ... use separate barlines for each staff."

Gardner Read, Music Notation, p. 295: "In order not to interfere with the written text of vocal music, barlines do not usually extend through all the voices as a group. .... the text may be more easily read."

There's always going to be a balance in music software between the flexibility of letting you do anything and the utility of assumptions about accepted conventions.
Last edited by benwiggy on Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by dankreider » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:28 pm

I would never, ever want to see barlines drawn through a vocal staff. I would immediately be prejudiced against the quality of the rest of the music, fairly or not.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by J_Woodtli » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:46 pm

That thread was really strange and funny to read, because it could be reduced, that a user asks for a white background for lyrics because it would be useful for him. But all he gets is a schoolmasterly lecture on good and bad notation. Sometimes it would also be useful to get his head out of all these books with rules and think about whether the wish in itself could also bring something good or lead to freer possibilities of notation. Further development always implies the breaking of tradition and rules.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by benwiggy » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:37 pm

J_Woodtli wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:46 pm
... freer possibilities of notation. Further development always implies the breaking of tradition and rules.
If the user were trying to achieve some avante garde new style in which the use of staff barlines with text overlapping was revolutionary and conveying some new paradigm in notation, then perhaps I'd be more receptive. (Though invariably, the answer to such things is: 'use a graphics program to achieve non-standard results.) But if it someone just needlessly want to do something non-standard for no benefit, then what musicians expect to see is relevant and important.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by dankreider » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:40 pm

J_Woodtli wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:46 pm
But all he gets is a schoolmasterly lecture on good and bad notation. Sometimes it would also be useful to get his head out of all these books with rules and think about whether the wish in itself could also bring something good or lead to freer possibilities of notation. Further development always implies the breaking of tradition and rules.
Sounds great.

Hey Daniel, can you guys please add a feature to flip lyrics upside-down? Because that's how I want my scores to look. I think it's expressive, and I don't want to be bound to convention. ;)

The point is that it's not Dorico's job (as I understand it) to blaze new notational trails, but to reflect the needs of its user base. If a notation is common enough to be worth the development cost (and is represented in published literature), then so be it. That’s why the ensuing discussion here is not irrelevant to the OP.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:06 pm

dankreider wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:40 pm
Hey Daniel, can you guys please add a feature to flip lyrics upside-down?
That's boring. I want to be able to make scores that look like this, without any manual formatting:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rColor.jpg
That was "ancient technology" even when the original Dorico was doing his thing :)

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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by Derrek » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:03 pm

And I want Dorico to fire up my coffee machine and remind me to take coffee breaks at set (configurable, of course) intervals. :evil:
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by J_Woodtli » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:37 pm

Hey Guys
That's exactly what I meant! Personally I never ever use connected barlines for choir notation, but every once in a while there are situations where things get a bit squeezed, it would be nice to white out the background of one lyric syllable. But you senior members have your fun with me and go on with your lecture … but please stay open minded, because one day even you can come in a situation, where this possibility could suit you well … and besides, if you ever conducted a double choir this grouping with the connected barlines isn't all that bad in a live situation as Jazzisfaction stated above. And another one are those piano scores with the text in the middle and yes it's really bad, bad notation, but it exists.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by dankreider » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:04 pm

J_Woodtli wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:37 pm
it's really bad, bad notation, but it exists.
So the development team should invest time developing features that specifically accommodate “really bad, bad notation”?
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by Romanos401 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:08 pm

I can understand supporting certain optional things like connecting barlines BETWEEN choral groups (between bracketed groups of vocal staves), or connecting final barlines on each stave (again, following bracketed groups). I can also understand supporting shiftX text whiting out background. But I really don’t see the point in connecting staves. Honestly, if I was doing something that would get my scores rejected by a publisher, I’d want to know. Some rules have wiggle room; others, like this one, are very well codified in modern practice.

I also think it is legitimate for Dorico (any notation software) to carefully consider exactly what it allows users to do. We all know that there are weird things that have become common on poorly-conceived scores shared online just because a program was capable of doing it (worse still, it was a default) and the person who created the score didn’t even know they were doing something wrong. Case in point: scan CPDL. There are absolutely atrocious scores on there. Not allowing vocal staves with connecting lines, as a matter of principle to follow best-practice is actually a wise design decision, IMHO, as it pushes the user toward best practice whether they realize it or not. I’m sure Dorico doesn’t want to be known as the software that was used to create a bunch of wacky (read: crappy) scores on the internet. Crumb is one thing. The graphic element was a specific part of the work’s conception from the beginning. Frustrating-to-read octavos just because an editor hasn’t carefully considered a universal standard and the software was poorly conceived to default output a bad result is quite another. At least the OP was attempting a workaround for something else, not actually attempting to use the line as lyrics proper. Credit where credit is due.

All of that said, as a shoutout to the OP: there is one instance where I wished for this myself in the service of actual lyrics, and that was when I was indicating a section break with a double barline and wanted a single line of lyrics for a soloist to continue through the barline, but wanted the other parts connected since they were resting and I wanted to make it obvious. (The soloist had a long line of recitative chant that extended through the bar; everyone else had rests with a fermata and a meter change.) Perhaps there could be an option to support whiting out on a lyric-by-lyric basis with a toggle for special exceptions. Like the others, I definitely don’t support flouting the standard here.
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Re: [SOLVED] avoiding a lyric overlapping a barline

Post by J_Woodtli » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:35 pm

So the development team should invest time developing features that specifically accommodate “really bad, bad notation”?
Sorry Dan, my apologies I tried to be ironic here, but my english was apparently not good enough. But that wasn't my point here. I was concerned about the rather disrespectful tone with which the initial request was handled, whether it was justified or not. If someone has a problem, he does not want to be lectured from above or even ridiculed, even if the problem is perhaps completely unimportant. But fortunately, Romanos has also experienced that sometimes it could be really useful to add a background to single syllables.
Last but not least I would like to add that the general editing of text (or lyrics) is still very rudimentary even in Dorico 3, which has taken up the cause of making desktop publishing programs obsolete. So I'm really counting on Dorico 4, That gets all these text issues settled.
Last edited by J_Woodtli on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:36 am, edited 5 times in total.
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