Classical Guitar Indications

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
User avatar
SeeWhat
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by SeeWhat » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:27 pm

please remember that barre and position indicators (roman NB) are NOT playing techniques but fingering indications
Win10 pro 64; Elitebook 1050; 16gb; DoricoPro 3.1.10; Cubase Pro 9.5. ; Cubase Elements 9.5.; 2x Stream Decks 1x SD XL; Melodyne; Amazing Slow Downer; Adam S2-A; Sibelius 2020.x until end of subscription;
My native language is french, my english SoSo...
My guitar lessons https://www.guitare-nyon.ch (french)

Esermon
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:01 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Esermon » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:28 pm

Daniel, Thank you so much for your offer of barre indicators but I do not want a workaround to address this issue. The barre and barre indicator are part of one feature, not multiple. I do not want to add anything to a score that I will have to go back to later and cleanup, when the full feature is added to Dorico. Add the feature when it is ready. I will use other software until your team adds the feature, as I have been doing for years. I am patiently awaiting the next release but yes, I am disappointed and please, stop over promoting features of Dorico that are in development.

Eddo
Junior Member
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm
Location: Stuttgart, GER
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Eddo » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:41 pm

Supposed DP4 is released – what exactly is the difference regarding the amount of work between "cleaning up" a score from a previous version containing work-arounds and reworking a score created in another piece of software and imported/adopted to DP4……?…
Playing and teaching 4-12 plucked and slided strings
Dorico Pro 3 | Sibelius 8.1 | Cubase Pro 10 | Ableton Live 10 | Wavelab 9.5.35.152
MBP13' 14,2 | macOS 10.15.4 | MOTU Traveler mk3

User avatar
pianoleo
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 7380
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:17 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by pianoleo » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:42 am

Eddo, nobody - not even the development team - can possibly know that until they've implemented whatever features make it into Dorico 4.
Pianist/accompanist/engraver/arranger
2019 Macbook Pro 16" 2.3gGHz 8-core i9, 32GB RAM,
2015 Macbook Pro 13" Retina 3.1GHz dual-core i7, 8GB RAM; running Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro X, Dorico Pro 3.5 etc.
& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
Sibelius user since Sibelius 7 (Acorn, 1997), Ex-Sibelius user since Dorico 1.0

bobk
Junior Member
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:49 pm
Location: Oakland, CA
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by bobk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:36 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:42 am
Eddo, nobody - not even the development team - can possibly know that until they've implemented whatever features make it into Dorico 4.
Leo: I think Eddo was suggesting that Esermont consider the tradeoff between 1) cleaning up a Dorico score once the Roman numeral feature is properly implemented and 2) cleaning up a Sibelius score imported to Dorico via Music XML.

If the former is less work, Esermont would benefit from creating new scores in Dorico right now rather than continue working in Sibelius until this one feature is added.

==========================

I agree with Esermont that including Roman numerals with barre indicators "should be fundamental and basic to any classical guitar notation package that advertises notation for classical guitar," and with SeeWhat that "barre and position indicators (roman NB) are NOT playing techniques but fingering indications."

The guitar notation shortcomings aren't deal-breakers for me, but one of the first things I looked for in Dorico Pro 3 was the Roman numeral position indicators. Like Esermon, I was stunned that they were missing.

I also would like to see these guitar-related Engraving Options:

- include or omit the "C" from the barre bracket

- choose between solid and dashed line for the bracket default (I realize this can be changed after the fact in the Properties window in Engrave mode.)
Bob

Dorico Pro 3.5 | --- | Cubase 10 Pro | --- | Hackintosh i9-9900k | Mac OS 10.14.6 |---| MacBook Pro (15-inch, Mid 2012) | 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 | Mac OS 10.14.6 |---| Metric Halo ULN-8 3d

a-jensen
Junior Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by a-jensen » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:07 pm

I too agree that the classical guitar features are rather disappointing but the workarounds easier than in ver. 2:
Besides the things listed above I can add:
Gliss. can't have text - text is ruled out for fretted instruments. So no portamento either.
The font for right- and left-hand fingerings are shared, making it impossible to use the interface with different fonts for the two hands.
No C with a vertical line to indicate "half-barre" only the ½C.

That said the guidelines between fingerings are really good, and so are the in-system fingerings. And the possibility to add lines to playing techniques is great. But I miss a lines without hooks, arrows etc. I know I can remove them one by one in engraving mode - but more general control would be fine. With the playing technique workarounds, I finally will use Dorico exclusively for my future engraving for guitar.

Eddo
Junior Member
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm
Location: Stuttgart, GER
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Eddo » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:29 pm

bobk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:36 pm
pianoleo wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:42 am
Eddo, nobody - not even the development team - can possibly know that until they've implemented whatever features make it into Dorico 4.
Leo: I think Eddo was suggesting that Esermont consider the tradeoff between 1) cleaning up a Dorico score once the Roman numeral feature is properly implemented and 2) cleaning up a Sibelius score imported to Dorico via Music XML.

If the former is less work, Esermont would benefit from creating new scores in Dorico right now rather than continue working in Sibelius until this one feature is added.
Thank you, bobk,

Yes, my post was indeed meant that way. I somehow seem to have a talent to confuse Leo :-) It's not the first time ;-)
And yes, I was suprised, too, to not find Roman numerals and can only guess that they will hopefully be delivered in one of the minor updates within v.3. I wonder if it has to do with the implied semantics that affect automated TAB fingering.
I'd rather the barré indications didn't contain any letters, just vertical and horizontal lines and the before-mentioned Roman numerals somewhere in between.
As to the vertical line, it clearly enough indicates if the barré is "half" or "full". It is even more precise in that regard.
I also realized that creating a common fingering for several strings doesn't create a barré indication, although this would be logical in my eyes.
And I miss a possibility to indicate which finger does the barré. I'm used to see it directly next to the vertical line, not next to the notes.
As for one-third-barrés across only two strings I would love to use a simple "staple" (which I can, but it's not semantic).

That said, I am all the same impressed by the current result and ready to switch for good.
Playing and teaching 4-12 plucked and slided strings
Dorico Pro 3 | Sibelius 8.1 | Cubase Pro 10 | Ableton Live 10 | Wavelab 9.5.35.152
MBP13' 14,2 | macOS 10.15.4 | MOTU Traveler mk3

User avatar
SeeWhat
Member
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by SeeWhat » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:55 pm

To keep everything in the same place....

Also the string nb, in Dorico, seem to have some confusing semantics as they appear (wrongly) in playing techniques and in the properties bottom at a different size.
they do not hide when you un-check "Show fingering" in Layout/players/fingering, although they are definitely also to put in the "fingering" semantic group
Win10 pro 64; Elitebook 1050; 16gb; DoricoPro 3.1.10; Cubase Pro 9.5. ; Cubase Elements 9.5.; 2x Stream Decks 1x SD XL; Melodyne; Amazing Slow Downer; Adam S2-A; Sibelius 2020.x until end of subscription;
My native language is french, my english SoSo...
My guitar lessons https://www.guitare-nyon.ch (french)

Dan S
Junior Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:39 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Dan S » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:40 am

I hesitate to weigh in on this but some of the arguments are absurd. Barre indications may not be native in Dorico yet but as stated above, they are easily created as shown earlier in this thread. Dorico's incredible flexibility allows for it. To imply that it isn't available in Dorico is just wrong. And while you may argue that barre is a fingering, that's not quite right either. Notes under the barre have fingerings. And, whatever you call it, a barre is notated like a playing technique as it usually (not always) applies to a span of notes. Just saying...

andyforrest
Junior Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by andyforrest » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:51 pm

I've been trying to find a vertical hooked line that is extensible - like the Ornament->Arpeggiation->Non Arpeggio one without the top hook - for a guitar barré.
I thought I might be able to adapt this one but can't find it anywhere under Engrave Mode->Playing Techniques nor Engrave Mode->Music Symbols.
Barrés.png
(23.42 KiB) Not downloaded yet
I could make a hooked line in Playing Techniques - but this wouldn't be extensible vertically.
I did find 'Fingering left bracket plain' and 'Left bracket for hairpin' but can't find out how to change them.

Has anyone come up with a good answer here?

Might this barré be a feature in a Dorico 3 update?
iMac 27" (late 2012), Catalina 10.15.2, Quad-core i5, 8Gb RAM; MacBook Pro 2017 Dual-core i5, Catalina 10.15.2
Dorico Pro 3.1; Website: http://www.forrestguitarensembles.co.uk/

User avatar
pianoleo
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 7380
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:17 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by pianoleo » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:52 pm

Eddo, sorry, I misunderstood.
Pianist/accompanist/engraver/arranger
2019 Macbook Pro 16" 2.3gGHz 8-core i9, 32GB RAM,
2015 Macbook Pro 13" Retina 3.1GHz dual-core i7, 8GB RAM; running Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro X, Dorico Pro 3.5 etc.
& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
Sibelius user since Sibelius 7 (Acorn, 1997), Ex-Sibelius user since Dorico 1.0

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 17108
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:52 pm

Andy, we certainly expect to extend the capabilities of the program with regard to lines like this in future.

andyforrest
Junior Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by andyforrest » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:32 pm

Good to hear, Daniel; thanks in advance.
iMac 27" (late 2012), Catalina 10.15.2, Quad-core i5, 8Gb RAM; MacBook Pro 2017 Dual-core i5, Catalina 10.15.2
Dorico Pro 3.1; Website: http://www.forrestguitarensembles.co.uk/

Eddo
Junior Member
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm
Location: Stuttgart, GER
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Eddo » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:47 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:52 pm
Eddo, sorry, I misunderstood.
Leo, I am willing to forgive you for once :D
Playing and teaching 4-12 plucked and slided strings
Dorico Pro 3 | Sibelius 8.1 | Cubase Pro 10 | Ableton Live 10 | Wavelab 9.5.35.152
MBP13' 14,2 | macOS 10.15.4 | MOTU Traveler mk3

Viaduct
New Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Viaduct » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:52 pm

a-jensen wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:07 pm
Gliss. can't have text - text is ruled out for fretted instruments.
Why?

I've just spent a while trying to figure out how to get the 'gliss.' text to show, but to no avail.

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 17108
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:53 pm

It's something we did based on some (apparently faulty) information about the kinds of markings guitarists use. We will rectify this in a forthcoming update.

User avatar
mchiapparini
New Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:51 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by mchiapparini » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:02 am

I am an amateur classical guitar player, and I am evaluating Dorico Elements 3 (within the 30 days trial period). I second Esermon's complains regarding the Bar indicator for classical guitar. Musescore 3 is doing a pretty good job regarding the bars and its continuation lines. May be, it is worth taking a look to it, to improve Dorico 3 in this aspect.
--
Marcelo Chiapparini

Esermon
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:01 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Esermon » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:58 pm

Has this feature been added to 3.1 with lines or are you still suggesting this workaround?

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 17108
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:48 pm

We haven't changed this specific thing in Doico 3.1, no, but it definitely remains on the backlog and I expect us to get to it soon.

micck
New Member
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by micck » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:55 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:04 am
Esermon, I'm very sorry that you're disappointed with the guitar features in Dorico 3. I will happily create all of the barre indicators you might need up to whichever fret you require, with both B and C at the start, and send you a project with these included.
Dear Daniel, I´d be also interested in the project you created. It would be great if you could send it to me. Thanks!
Dorico Pro 3.1, Logic Pro X, Guitar Pro 7.5, Sibelius 7
MacMini 2012, 2,3 GHz i7, 8GB RAM

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 17108
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:19 am

I didn't actually do it in the end, as Esermon decided that he wouldn't use Dorico. But I could do it now if needed.

Eddo
Junior Member
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:45 pm
Location: Stuttgart, GER
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Eddo » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:42 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:48 pm
We haven't changed this specific thing in Doico 3.1, no, but it definitely remains on the backlog and I expect us to get to it soon.
Will it be realized in the fourth iteration? It is not trivial to not having it available…
Playing and teaching 4-12 plucked and slided strings
Dorico Pro 3 | Sibelius 8.1 | Cubase Pro 10 | Ableton Live 10 | Wavelab 9.5.35.152
MBP13' 14,2 | macOS 10.15.4 | MOTU Traveler mk3

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 17108
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:53 pm

I can't say for sure, I'm afraid. All I can say is that nobody in the team is working on it right at this moment, but it certainly remains on our backlog for future implementation.

Jay Sterling
New Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Jay Sterling » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:11 pm

As a new Dorico user (from Sibelius, and Finale before that), that I am really impressed by the classical guitar notation features! Great work, I am looking forward to what's next.

This is not a barre chord issue per se, but I am having a curious issue with string indicators. When I check the show String Indicators button, sometimes open strings appear with just a zero rather than the string number inside of a circle. I've tried manually using the string indicator under the guitar techniques, but this creates a larger sized number for the whole chord. Is there a work around, or something I am missing?
Attachments
D.png
(20.56 KiB) Not downloaded yet

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 17108
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Classical Guitar Indications

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:02 pm

Welcome to the forum, Jay. There's an engraving option for this, on the String Indicators page of Engraving Options.

Post Reply

Return to “Dorico”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dankreider, Derrek, dwlarson, FlorentG, hdeyoung, johnabram, Stephen Taylor and 7 guests