Expression Maps

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
Post Reply
mhcoffin
New Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by mhcoffin » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:42 am

I've finished the first iteration of Dorico expression maps and Synchron Player presets for VSL Synchron Strings I. Presets are now included for Violins1, Violins2, Violas, Cellos, and Basses. Let me know if you find anything wrong or confusing.

More details and installation instructions in the ReadMe file.

-mike
Attachments
syn-strings.zip
(133.07 KiB) Downloaded 43 times

sakasuri
New Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:03 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by sakasuri » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:14 pm

Hi!

Here is a BBC Symphony Orchestra Percussion Map that I made for Dorico. You have to define you percussion playing techniques for snare drum, marching snare drum and tenor drum to match the noteheads you'd like to use. Otherwise it should work fine, if keyswitches in BBC SO Plugin are the same as in the PDF that comes with the zip file.
Attachments
BBC SO Percussion map.zip
(56.04 KiB) Downloaded 38 times

sakasuri
New Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:03 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by sakasuri » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:16 pm

I didn't know how to map grace notes for snare drum to trigger the grace note sample, but if there is a way let me know!

richhickey
New Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by richhickey » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:08 pm

I hope the Dorico team has some better ideas for articulation management than just copying Cubase's expression maps. The VSL Synchron strings emap posted above, and the Note Performer emap highlight several problems with using expression maps for articulations.

Failure to map directly to control schemes

While there may at ground truth be a particular sample for e.g. marcato+long+con sordino+non-vib, very few (no?) sample plugins have flat address spaces like that. Instead, they offer more than one control dimension and perform the intersection of controls internally. Some examples:
  • In VSL Synchron Dimension strings - mute/string emphasis/articulation/vib and marcato are 5 independent dimensions.
  • Orchestral Tools Berlin strings has articulation/mute/vib/accent on 4 independent dimensions.
  • Note Performer emap is using 5 CC 'dimensions'.
So in VSL Synchron and OT, a single CC moves through vibrato levels. A single CC can switch between mutes. Etc. Note Performer is controlling itself similarly. These schemes are semantic and orthogonal, in the same way music notation is about directives and playing techniques.

A system that was co-aligned with this would let you create a 'group' (like the exclusion groups, but independent from one another) and an associated set of control messages, sending those messages whenever you transitioned within a group. These should 'chase', like other control signals.

Without something like this you have to incorporate a message for every dimension for each emap entry, i.e. 5 dimensions = 5 messages per entry, 5 messages per note. Look at the Note Performer emap for example.

Combinatorial explosion

Related to this is the fact that, by creating a single, flat address space, emaps require a number of entries equal to the product of the sizes of the dimensions. So, taking Synchronized Dimension Strings as an example (where I've put Norm/Sord into a dimension) we have:

Mute (on/off - 2)
String (norm, open, sulX - 6)
Articulation (36 entries, in 2 synchron dimensions)
Attack (marcato/not - 2)
Vib (4 vib levels)

The product of these dimensions would require a whopping 3456 (2x6x36x2x4) emap entries, each specifying 6 CC/KS messages, for a total of 20736 messages to specify! While not every combo is valid, specifying even a fraction of these is far too many, especially with the tools provided. The XML format is not specified and the XML file is not just about emaps, unfortunately.

Contrast this with a system that allowed us to talk about each group separately - that yields the sum of the sizes of the dimensions, in this case 50 entries (2+6+36+2+4), each specifying only one or two KS/CC messages, for fewer than 100 messages to specify in total to exhaustively cover the options. The plugin already knows how to handle the product of these dimensions, emaps just force us to make every combination explicit and redundantly restate the dimension messages. Such enumeration of combinations should only be required when a plugin does not have more than one dimension of control.

Notion's rules system allows one to handle directive/technique dimensions separately and is an order of magnitude less work than emaps for a given setup.

Too many messages per note

This is somewhat of an optimization, and memory/chasing could alleviate, but currently a message is sent for every dimension, plus the dynamics CC, before every note. (Notion does the same thing).

In short, Cubase's emaps have well known scaling issues that particularly get triggered by orchestral sample library use cases. We need something better for notation programs.

Thanks for your consideration.

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 16965
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:27 pm

Paul and i have been talking about these kinds of issues for a long time, and we do have a number of ideas about how to mitigate the combinatorial explosion issue you describe here. Watch this space (though not super closely, because there won't be anything to see imminently).

User avatar
derBertram
New Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:27 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by derBertram » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:12 pm

I exploded and am now trying another workaround.

My XMap only contains (apart from the standards) one single entry for each patch of the VSL-lib,
all are in the same mutual exclusion group with "direction" (no attributes).
With an instrument prefix and meaningful named, you can find them well using Shift + 'p'.
it is easy to read in the musical text and works as intended, also support of dynamics and decorations,
controllable with with CCs and of course, can be made invisible in seconds.
The workload is still reasonable.
With an XMap filter in the popover, these user techniques could be reused in other XMaps.
Best regards
Bertram

Ich bin dabei explodiert und versuche nun einen anderen workaround.
Meine XMap enthält (ausser den Standards) nur noch jeweils einen direkten Eintrag für jedes patch der VSL-lib,
alle in einer exclusiven Gruppe mit "Richtung" (keine Attribute).
Mit Instrumenten-Prefix und sinnvoll benannt kann man sie mittels Shift+'p' gut finden.
Im Notentext gut zu lesen, funktionieren wie gedacht, unterstützen auch Dynamisches und Verzierungen, können mit CCs variert werden
und natürlich in Sekunden unsichtbar gemacht werden.
Der Arbeitsaufwand ist noch vertretbar.
Mit einem XMap-Filter im Popover könnten diese User-Techniken in anderen XMaps wiederverwendet werden.
Herzliche Grüße
Bertram
Attachments
dorico4.JPG
(55.85 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Cubase Pro 10.5, Dorico Pro 3.5, The Grand 3.2, VST ...

mhcoffin
New Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by mhcoffin » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:05 am

Bug fix: attached is a new version of my Synchron Strings expression map and presets. "Arco" should now work properly.
The Synchron Player presets are unchanged from the previous version and don't need to be re-installed.
Attachments
syn-strings.zip
(133.19 KiB) Downloaded 40 times

User avatar
derBertram
New Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:27 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by derBertram » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:44 pm

In my experience, the mapping works without "pt.user ..". I just always use the same text labels. The program change also seems to work - so I manage with 2 (+ 1 for A / B) events per entry.
Best regards
Bertram

Nach meiner Erfahrung funktioniert das Mapping auch ohne "pt.user..". Ich verwende einfach immer die gleiche Textbezeichnungen. Auch der Programmwechsel scheint zu funktionieren - so komme ich mit 2 (+ 1 für A/B) Events aus pro Eintrag aus.
Beste Grüße
Bertram
Attachments
dorico7.JPG
(91.7 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Cubase Pro 10.5, Dorico Pro 3.5, The Grand 3.2, VST ...

User avatar
PaulWalmsley
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 9:24 pm
Location: Steinberg, London
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:53 pm

I would recommend keeping the pt.user prefix for the Playback Playing Technique IDs, as that is what Dorico uses to know that they are not the built-in ones.
Architect & Developer - Steinberg London

Thurisaz
Member
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:43 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Thurisaz » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:40 pm

Hello the team and colleagues,
In an older comment here I've seen someone having problem with the correct playback of techniques, especially if there are involved more than one
e.g. staccato + accent.
Here I would like to ask the team for small improvement of the Expression Maps, inspired by Overture 5.
You could allow the users to adjust the expression/technique Playback Offset. Currently such option doesn't exist in the Expression Maps dialog.
I'm not sure how the automatic Playback Offset works in Dorico Pro, but in Overture 5 it is linked to the MIDI note position (the MIDI mock-up), so even the playback of the notes starts before the written traditional notation, everything plays as expected.
Is not uncommon for the musicians to play the notes a little bit earlier...

Thank you in advance! :-)
Best wishes to all! :-)
Composer, arranger, orchestrator, multi-instrumentalist and sound engineer
Workstation: HP Z820 (2x Xeon Octa-Core E5-2670 @ 2.6GHz, 64GB Ram DDR3 @ 1333MHz)
OS: Windows 10 Pro 1909
DAWs: Cubase Pro 10.0.60, Studio One 4.6, Pro Tools 12
Notation: Dorico Pro 3.5.0, Overture 5.6, Sibelius 2019.7
VI Host: Vienna Ensemble Pro 7.0.1048

User avatar
PaulWalmsley
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 9:24 pm
Location: Steinberg, London
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:30 am

This is on our list for a future version.
Architect & Developer - Steinberg London

Spago
New Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:29 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Spago » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:11 pm

Hi,

I followed several videos and readings and eventually managed to set the expression maps correctly for the whole East West Symphonic Orchestra in Cubase 10.5.
I started in any case from the Steinberg website page
EXPRESSION MAPS FOR VST EXPRESSION
viewforum.php?f=246
Here I downloaded the Expression Map files for the EWSO that can be used in Cubase.
I used them in Cubase and they work perfectly.

I recalled them in Dorico applying the following process:

From the PLAY section I selected the Play->Expression Maps menu...
From this dialog I selected “Import Cubase Expression Map” and imported all the EWSO EM I had used in Cubase.
These were correctly imported and displayed in Dorico.
I then added to each EM the item "Natural" associating it to the basic articulation so that where no articulation was indicated in the score, the default articulation was selected.
Also in the PLAY section I then selected the Endpoint Setup of the EWSO VST Play and in this I associated the proper EM for each instrument I had .

And here begin the questions.
I would have expected to find, in the Playing Techniques menu in the right panel of the WRITE section, all the articulations defined in the Expression Map selected.

This doesn't happen and I can’t understand how to do it so, even though I've done all the steps indicated in the manual and in the videos that deal with the topic, there is actually no way to use the articulations defined in these Expression Maps or at least not every articulation present in defined EM and with the denominated technique.

Did I miss something?

I saw the Daniel replay but it is of 2 years ago, anything change in last 3.1 version?
Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm
leigh_d wrote:In Write mode how can I access Xmap Playing Techniques if they are not displayed in the Shift-P popover or in the Playing Techniques panel?
Short answer: you can’t. In a future version of Dorico you will be able to edit playing techniques yourself.
Thank you in advance for any suggestion
Joe

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 16965
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:26 pm

You can edit playback playing techniques in Engrave > Playing Techniques. If you match them up between the playing techniques you create in the score and the ones you define in your expression maps, you should find that you can successfully trigger them.

Spago
New Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:29 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Spago » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:36 pm

Ok thank you Daniel.
Unfortunately I found out that the Engrave mode is not present in Dorico Elements.
Thanks anyway, at least I know that is possibile.

Joe

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 16965
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:47 pm

Ah yes, you are limited to the existing playing techniques in Dorico Elements, but if you can keep track of which ones you have used, you can use "wrong" playing techniques provided they match between the playing techniques you create in the score (which can be hidden) and the ones you use in your expression maps.

Andermusik
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andermusik » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:27 am

John at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:13 pm
Requests:
* Spitfire Symphonic Strings (John investigating using UACC)
Have there been Expression Maps posted for any SPITFIRE Symphonic Libraries using UACC (not Keyswitches)?

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 16965
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:01 am

No, not as far as I know.

User avatar
Andre
Senior Member
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:49 am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andre » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:12 pm

Did anyone make maps for Kirk Hunter Spotlight Strings?
Gothenburg, Sweden.
iMac 3 GHz Intel Core i5, 8 GB ram, macOS Mojave 10.14.6
Cubase X 10.9.40, Dorico 3 with NotePerformer 3.2.0
Logic Pro X. EWQLSO Gold, Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra/Concert Strings 2/Concert Brass 2, etc etc...
Dutch is my native language. English 2nd, Swedish 3rd, Spanish 4th (but don't ask me to use it...)
My music and tutorials on http://www.andrevanharen.com

Andermusik
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andermusik » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:15 pm

I like that you have the option to add a second CC w/ "Use Secondary dynamic" checked. My setup would benefit greatly from even more options there. Ideally one could have a crescendo with Mod, Velocity, Expression, amount of Vibrato (or any other CC available) - all tied to the dynamics lane. Even better would be the ability to set each CC or velocity option to its own max and min value so some would use the full range and others less.

For now I can draw info in the corresponding CC lanes, but having something like the above would be a time saver. Does this sound possible for a future version?

Andermusik
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andermusik » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:06 am

More questions for the day:

1) Is there an in-depth tutorial on the "Techniques" section of the Xmap? I'm trying to limit the Velocity value on staccatos, but it doesn't seem to respond - like it's getting over-ridden by the dynamics velocities. (?)

2) Is there a way to change the default midi note lengths for a particular Xmap? For strings I'd like to have full note values as default (no lift at the end of every note).

3) Similarly, I'd like to have the default note lengths of SLURRED notes also be longer - as my library makes smoother transitions between notes. The overlap is not quite long enough as it is.

Thanks!

User avatar
PaulWalmsley
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 9:24 pm
Location: Steinberg, London
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:13 pm

Some of the fields in the expression map editor are currently there to show the values that were imported from a Cubase expression map. Dorico doesn't use them just yet, but we do plan on adding more control on a per technique basis for the future. You can change the length of staccato and legato (for notes under slurs) in Playback Options.
Architect & Developer - Steinberg London

Andermusik
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andermusik » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:43 pm

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:13 pm
Some of the fields in the expression map editor are currently there to show the values that were imported from a Cubase expression map. Dorico doesn't use them just yet, but we do plan on adding more control on a per technique basis for the future. You can change the length of staccato and legato (for notes under slurs) in Playback Options.
Thanks, Paul. Once implemented the percentages and velocity limiters should give me the customization I'm looking for.

However, I notice there is no expression map item for SLUR. The ability to customize note-length defaults per stave for slurs is crucial - especially for string libraries. Is that an item that can be added to the list at some point?

User avatar
PaulWalmsley
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 1935
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 9:24 pm
Location: Steinberg, London
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by PaulWalmsley » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:59 am

Legato playing technique = slur
Architect & Developer - Steinberg London

User avatar
gdball
Junior Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by gdball » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:43 pm

I found that one on my own, but slur=legato took me somewhat by surprise too. Makes sense, but I'm loving the ability to create playback playing techniques separate from playback techniques and this is an example: if I need slurred runs to be a little more detached than a true legato section. I'm doing it with a text p.t. above the section like I do for "On Bow"

Paul I'm curious if with the new lines there is a way to have two different named "slurs"? The test isn't really bothersome, its just I have to remember to put a Nat. at the end.

Brian Roland
Member
Posts: 998
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Expression Maps

Post by Brian Roland » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:05 pm

Andermusik wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:06 am
More questions for the day:

3) Similarly, I'd like to have the default note lengths of SLURRED notes also be longer - as my library makes smoother transitions between notes. The overlap is not quite long enough as it is.
legato is triggered upon slur marks.

I have some libraries that allow pedaling to activate portamento and crossfading effects.

For this to work as it should, I need to delay the legato event a few ms, so that the pedal is not engaged until a tick or more AFTER the first note in a slurred passage, and the pedal doesn't get let up until AFTER the last note in the passage.

With HALion instruments, my workaround is to use the full blown HALion 6 plugin to place a LUA script in the instrument/program that delays the CC pedal event. I don't know much about other sampler/synth engines, but it's possible others might support some kind of scripted transform/delay tactic for specific incoming MIDI events for an instrument as well.

For non HALion instruments, I've been using Bidule to intercept and delay the event.

For Garritan libraries, one can enable auto-legato mode for monophonic instruments, and set legato notes to overlap in Dorico's playback settings. The catch with this approach is that a stave can no longer have more than one note sounding at a time. It's a true monophonic setting.

In cases where neither Auto-legato, HALion, nor Bidule are an option, I simply don't try to do the CC pedaling with expressive techniques, and instead set legato notes so they overlap in playback settings. If portamento is desired, I'll just add those to a CC lane in the playback tab.

Post Reply

Return to “Dorico”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: FredGUnn, MatsHall, rkrentzman, Stephen Taylor, vanmeule and 8 guests