Bring on that sweet figured bass!

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MarcLarcher
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by MarcLarcher » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:28 am

Thanks Florian! This is excellent news, I'll try it as soon as possible!
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by PjotrB » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:47 pm

Thanks a lot! I’ll try it right away.
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by benwiggy » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:23 pm

One issue I have is that I get extension lines when enter figures on tied notes, even if I 'move away' using arrow keys. I've taken to entering such figures on other notes and then moving them with Alt-arrows. But it's a bit tiresome if you've got loads of different figures on a pedal note...!

Any tips?
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by fkretlow » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:56 pm

benwiggy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:23 pm
One issue I have is that I get extension lines when enter figures on tied notes, even if I 'move away' using arrow keys. I've taken to entering such figures on other notes and then moving them with Alt-arrows. But it's a bit tiresome if you've got loads of different figures on a pedal note...!

Any tips?
Yes, this is awkward. Tip: don't care about the extender lines until you've input all the figures. Then select them all, switch to Engrave Mode, activate the Line End X property and input something like -1000. Thus you should get rid of them all at once.

For multiple figures under a pedal note I recommend inputting one note at every rhythmic position where there's a figure first, then input the figures and tie the notes afterwards.
Florian

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:12 pm

Dear all,

As a newcomer to Dorico after years with one of "the other program"s, I have now plunged into Dorico for my work which is mainly with Baroque music. The Figurato-font for Windows is a delight to use, it looks good, and it does indeed also answer all the many earlier requests for a way to input various editorial (bracketed] accidentals above the staff (input as Playing Technique).

I do realize that a figured bass-font will probably never be "complete", as there are so many personal and national conventions involved, but may I make a small request for a couple of additional features:

A possibility to "dash" (/) a figure
At the moment this works with "3" (not so beautiful, though....), with "7" and with "9" (but there the dash goes the other way.......). But it would be very nice to have it with "4", "5" (I am doing mainly Rameau at the moment, and he uses this frequently) and "6".

A possibility to use "+" as an independent pre-/suffix
This works with "3" and "4", but with "5" upwards the +-sign becomes part of the number - which is needed as well of course.......

But thank you again, Florian!
Lars Ulrik

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:16 pm

AND:
I forgot to mention that using the method described above of inputting several figures under a long bass-note also works when you afterwards change your rhythmic "placeholders" back into the original long note(s). The figures remain in place.

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by fkretlow » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 pm

lumortensen wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:12 pm
A possibility to "dash" (/) a figure
At the moment this works with "3" (not so beautiful, though....), with "7" and with "9" (but there the dash goes the other way.......). But it would be very nice to have it with "4", "5" (I am doing mainly Rameau at the moment, and he uses this frequently) and "6".
Lars Ulrik, I think I know what you're requesting, but could you post images of how exactly you want the dashed numbers to look so we're sure we're talking about the same thing? And perhaps point me to a publication/edition?
lumortensen wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:12 pm
A possibility to use "+" as an independent pre-/suffix
This works with "3" and "4", but with "5" upwards the +-sign becomes part of the number - which is needed as well of course.......
Yes, I agree that this would be useful. It's a bit tricky to figure out different ways to input these different combinations though. Would you need '–' as pre-/suffix too?

I'll see what I can do, might take a while though.
I'm glad you find the font useful!
Florian

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:49 pm

My technical know-how unfortunately does not extend to screenshots yet..... But have a look at f.ex. the continuo part of Leclair's 1.Recreation

http://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usi ... simile.pdf

which among other goodies uses a profusion of "dashed" figures. (Nice, by the way, how Figurato enables lines to be drawn, when a figure extends over several bass-notes, by using a hard return + Space).

In modern editions, these are mostly transcribed as an normal oblique dash "/" superimposed on the unmodified number (or the other way around).
So: / and 5 simultaneously.

Yeah, I can imagine the input challenges! At the moment using "/" and "+" after 5 or 6 gives the same result. I don't remember seeing "-" ever, so I think we can put that one to rest......

No haste at all! But it would be very welcome if this would one day become possible.
Liebe Grüsse,
Lars Ulrik

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by k_b » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:32 am

Lars Ulrik,
I made a little screenshot (from the minore part of the Chaconne). Is this (stroke through) 5, what you mean?
If you don’t mind an amateurish question: which chord does this represent? (Bass clef) E G Bb C#?

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:44 pm

It seems that Leclair uses the dash through the 5 to mean a lowered fifth. There are plenty of instances (in this work) in which the dashed 5 is used over a sharpened bass note and the dash simply means that the interval above shouldn't be sharped. In this particular case, I would opt for the b-flat, as the upper voices have b-flats in these measures. You might even interpret the dash on the 5 as referring to an interval other than what would be meant by a 5 without the dash.
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:25 pm

...we are getting into nerd territory, and I like it........

K_B, this is exactly what I was after. And the intended chord is indeed E G Bb C#, aka a non-amateurish diminished chord (a rootless dominant with added 9th filling the space between two tonic chords (root-position and 1st inversion)).

The amount of "slant" of the dash differed from composer, publishing house or from day to day. Here it is closer to horizontal, but for a modern transcription I believe that a normal oblique dash is sufficient.

Vaughan, the dashed (or otherwise modified) 5 was indeed used to indicate the tri-tone, diabolus in musica or whatever you like. Technically, in this instance, it is necessary because the example (bass-clef) is in d minor (=Dorian) WITHOUT a key signature, but few composers would have bothered with such niceties, as playing b natural iso flat would have been unthinkable in this harmonic context, Anyway, any reference to the solo instruments would have been moot, as there was no score - unless you "pre-doricoed" one yourself! Most ensemble music at this time was published only in parts.

Not straying completely off-topic, many composers/printers used a similar differentation between modifiers for 5 and 6 as Leclair, undoubtedly for readability reasons. You could also find dashed 6/b5 used in this situation. And Leclair's prints are often quite tightly spaced and very densely figured. It would be nice if Figurato could enable this differentation.

Finally, in contemporary FB-practice under certain harmonic circumstances a particular figuring often invited you to add still more intervals. It is frequently mentioned in French treatises (Saint-Lambert, Delair, Corette etc, but by no means only in France) that with a modified b5 ("fausse-quinte") you were supposed to add the unfigured 6th as well. So had the example above modulated to F Major instead (an F major chord on the following bar iso of the indicated d-min 1st inversion), the figuring 5b ALONE on the E would/should/could have resulted in E G Bb C, i.e. the complete "dominant" 7th-chord. There are much more dramatic examples elsewhere...........

Best wishes,
Lars Ulrik

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by k_b » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:31 am

Lars Ulrik, after having read your fantastic explanations (which can probably only be gained by experience of a practical musician and not just a musicologist alone - actually we need that combination...) I was wondering: this must be a nightmare for our Dorico developers, as of the difficulties accessing this field semantically.
If one thing can also mean the opposite - depending on its context.
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:15 pm

Dear K_B,

"If one thing can also mean the opposite - depending on its context."

Ah yes, that is exactly how music notation also functions! Like language!

""""""""
Thanks for your kind words! I have recently begun migrating to Dorico from Ss and am still working hard to come to terms with its completelly different concept, using a collection of Weckmann-sonates and an act of a Rameau opera as testcases. I have a long way to go still, but I am convinced that with this migration I am (as a 62 year-old) part of the future!
Early Music does indeed contain its own millions of conventions of notation, which may often seem difficult to "translate" into modern use. But I feel that Dorico is very well equipped for that.
If one wants to extend this conversation, probably a new thread is the best place for that general subject, so let's stick to the "Figurato"-theme here. I have no idea how far Dorico's own work on this subject progresses (or even if my thoughts below are relevant), but I have pondered a bit further this morning about specialized FB-requirements (the list below is probably not exhaustive!):

Concept
FB-behaviour must be related to lyrics behaviout, but NOT imitate it (more than one "syllable" per note, dash must not advance caret at input and vertical placement must be editable better than using lyric-type baselines (not bass-lines....)

Figures available:
Came up with more than 20 possible modifications of each basic "number"! Some of these are probably not necessary, but generally available should be (most of) the following:

Numbers:
1-14 (the present Figurato-limit of 12 is sufficient for everything except late 16th/early 17thC-stuff)

Modifiers:
A) Accidentals (flat, natural, sharp and x (modern double-sharp looks best in Figurato, but possibly also the letter x) before or after number
"+" before or after number
B) Dashes "/" and possibly "-" (which must be available as a separate character as well!) superimposed on number
C) Various special appearances of e.g. 4,5,6,7 with the "+" integrated into the number (Figurato already has some of those)
D) Brackets (round or square, ditto)
E) Lines (not "-"). Probably the present lyric-like Space-Key-function, with or without a number as "placeholder" in all stacks and with line placement editable
F) (Too luxurious?): The possibility of smaller-font "x", double sharp or letter, before or after a note (baseline and superscript)

Input:
A) A consistent figure-input method for all of the above. The present Figurato-state, where two different inputs (e.g. 5+ and 5/) produce the same figure, is understandable, but not ideal.
B) Several figures per note must be automatically possible, so input must probably be based on the rhythmic grid.
C) Arrow keys (or something, NOT dash) must advance the caret.

Engraving:
A) Vertical placement MUST be editable and not anchored to base-lines. The present (understandable) anchoring to a baseline per system is not flexible enough.
A1) Sometimes various combinations of modifiers (eg. natural and flat) in different layers cause unpredictable collisions. Consequently each "stack" must be editable, and/or it must be straightforward to input several independent figures per "FB-event".
B) Horizontal placement. With figures in more-than-one line this is THE developer's nightmare! I don't think one can make a catch-all-solution, but with these engraving possibilities in place at least the user has the freedom to "nerd".

Playback:
Don't bother!

This is getting more than long enough! Have a happy weekend,
Lars Ulrik

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by fkretlow » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:51 pm

Dear Lars Ulrik,

I appreciate that you took the time to think about the concept of figured bass notation, and I enjoyed reading your post as I'm very interested in enhancing Figurato further. I'm pretty fluent in thinking, writing and playing figured bass, but I would never call myself an expert in this field, so your thoughts are extremely valuable.

Some things that you wrote can't be within the scope of Figurato because of the technical limits:
  • Single components of a figure can't be moved independently after creating the figure.
  • Horizontal lines of variable length are very awkward to create from within a font (one could imagine doing something with ligatures, but that's not really a feasible approach).
lumortensen wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:15 pm
Figures available:
Came up with more than 20 possible modifications of each basic "number"! Some of these are probably not necessary, but generally available should be (most of) the following:

Numbers:
1-14 (the present Figurato-limit of 12 is sufficient for everything except late 16th/early 17thC-stuff)
Adding 13 and 14 will be easy.
Modifiers:
A) Accidentals (flat, natural, sharp and x (modern double-sharp looks best in Figurato, but possibly also the letter x) before or after number
"+" before or after number
I could probably replace the double sharp with x. +, yes, of course.
C) Various special appearances of e.g. 4,5,6,7 with the "+" integrated into the number (Figurato already has some of those)
Care to elaborate? I'm very interested! A picture of all those special appearances would be very helpful.
F) (Too luxurious?): The possibility of smaller-font "x", double sharp or letter, before or after a note (baseline and superscript)
Same here.
Input:
A) A consistent figure-input method for all of the above. The present Figurato-state, where two different inputs (e.g. 5+ and 5/) produce the same figure, is understandable, but not ideal.
Yep, I agree. I'll have a think, and I'm also open to suggestions.
Engraving:
A) Vertical placement MUST be editable and not anchored to base-lines. The present (understandable) anchoring to a baseline per system is not flexible enough.
As said, this can't be dealt with from within the font.
You can use the font in text objects too, or use multiple lyric lines, which gives you some flexibility, but I agree that it's far from ideal. It's a workaround...
A1) Sometimes various combinations of modifiers (eg. natural and flat) in different layers cause unpredictable collisions. Consequently each "stack" must be editable, and/or it must be straightforward to input several independent figures per "FB-event".
Do you see accidentals in adjacent rows collide with Figurato? If you do, please let me know the combinations! The kerning tables for such situations are quite voluminous, so this should not happen.

All the best, and thanks again for your thoughts!
Florian
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:25 pm

Dear Florian,

Thank you for your kind and detailed answer. Yes, I did realize that I mixed up Dorico- and Figurato-issues, so let me try to concentrate more specifically on Figurato:

Note: These are all Dorico-specific issues:
Concept
FB-behaviour must be related to lyrics behaviout, but NOT imitate it (more than one "syllable" per note, dash must not advance caret at input and vertical placement must be editable better than using lyric-type baselines (not bass-lines....)

E) Lines (not "-"). Probably the present lyric-like Space-Key-function, with or without a number as "placeholder" in all stacks and with line placement editable
Input:
B) Several figures per note must be automatically possible, so input must probably be based on the rhythmic grid.
C) Arrow keys (or something, NOT dash) must advance the caret.
Engraving:
A) Vertical placement MUST be editable and not anchored to base-lines. The present (understandable) anchoring to a baseline per system is not flexible enough.
B) Horizontal placement. With figures in more-than-one line this is THE developer's nightmare! I don't think one can make a catch-all-solution, but with these engraving possibilities in place at least the user has the freedom to "nerd".
Playback:
Don't bother!
OK, here we go:
Figures available:

Numbers:
1-14 (the present Figurato-limit of 12 is sufficient for everything except late 16th/early 17thC-stuff)
Florian:
Adding 13 and 14 will be easy.
Great!
Modifiers:
A) Accidentals (flat, natural, sharp and x (modern double-sharp looks best in Figurato, but possibly also the letter x) before or after number
F) (Too luxurious?): The possibility of smaller-font "x", double sharp or letter, before or after a note (baseline and superscript)
"+" before or after number
Florian:
I could probably replace the double sharp with x. +, yes, of course.
Please forget my unnecessary request for a distinction between x-double sharp and x-letter! The Figurato double sharp is by far the best, though I think it should have a superscript-option (baseline already exists). And "+" is still needed as a separate character (see Input-issues below). The baseline x you have in the Leclair-example above, but he uses superscript on - I think - 4, and other composers/printers use this as a standard, so this would be nice to have.
B) Dashes "/" and possibly "-" (which must be available as a separate character as well!) superimposed on number
Being in a more forgiving mood today, apparently, I think one should forget "-" doing anything other than its current use. But "/" "on top of" a figure is necessary. I have seen it used on all the numbers 2-9 (maybe except 8, in my world augmented octaves occur because of tuning issues, not composition......) I am absolutely not a font creator, but there are probably alignment issues with each number? Some are already good in Figurato, but some are not.
C) Various special appearances of e.g. 4,5,6,7 with the "+" integrated into the number (Figurato already has some of those)
I am thinking primarily of various figures with the "+" integrated into the prolonged base- (2), middle- (4) or top-line (5 and 7) of the number itself. like the little vertical "tick" on 6 or 9, which Figurato does very elegantly. So not a "+" in close connection. Or maybe this whole issue is academic considering the font-sizes mostly in use for FB........

D) Brackets (round or square, ditto)
Figurato has solved a long-felt need for these, and I am inputting them with their accidentals happily above the staff in profusion!
Input:
A) A consistent figure-input method for all of the above. The present Figurato-state, where two different inputs (e.g. 5+ and 5/) produce the same figure, is understandable, but not ideal.
You wrote:
Yep, I agree. I'll have a think, and I'm also open to suggestions.
My test case was trying to input "/" and "+" before and after each character 2-9. Not quite consistent...... I am very happy that the world has you and not me as the "tech-savvy", but: Figurato already uses "," as a line-shift "code". Couldn't there be other key commands controlling figure "properties" consistently at input? Like "%" for superimposition (I think you only need it for the "/"), "&" for "special" numberversions (with tick) and "¤" for superscript ("x" only?)??? I have NO idea what I am talking about..........
Engraving:

A1) Sometimes various combinations of modifiers (eg. natural and flat) in different layers cause unpredictable collisions. Consequently each "stack" must be editable, and/or it must be straightforward to input several independent figures per "FB-event".
I tried yesterday my very hardest to make Figurato produce collisions between e.g. accidentals between stacks, and I failed miserably! So please consider this a non-issue!

*****
Anyone thinks this is over-complicated? Then try playing Bach's wonderful violinsonata in e minor (BWV1023) from the original (and only) manuscript source:

http://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usi ... _1023).pdf

An excellent example, along with e.g. Leclair's later violinsonatas (op.5 and 9), of the complexities and subtleties that FB-notation and its modern transcription can and should convey.

This was even longer than last time! Best wishes to Florian and all,
Lars Ulrik

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by srh » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:32 pm

I understand there are still no concrete plans for Figured Bass notation. Musescore has a fantastic system, why does it have to take so long?
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by benwiggy » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:38 pm

srh wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:32 pm
I understand there are still no concrete plans for Figured Bass notation. Musescore has a fantastic system, why does it have to take so long?
Siebe
The usual response from the Dorico team to such questions is (roughly): "It's not the only thing in the queue; but when we do it, we want to absolutely nail it."

When it comes, you can be certain that it will be amazing.
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by MarcLarcher » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:43 pm

Are you serious srh? Dorico is like two year and three months old, every update has brought a lot of features well implemented, and you complain about the time it takes to implement Figured Bass notation? FWIW, we know that the team plans to implement it when it reaches high priority, and for the time being, there are different solutions (Figurato or creating custom playing techniques) that do work. Happy Xmas, and I hope Santa will fulfill your dreams ;-)
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by Rob Tuley » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:40 pm

srh wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:32 pm
Musescore has a fantastic system, why does it have to take so long?
The thing about open-source software development is, you get what people are interested in doing for themselves. And if nobody is interested in something, it never gets done, or never gets fixed if it breaks.

So if somebody wanted to spend a few months of their time adding figured bass to Musescore because they personally wanted to use it, it happened.

On the other hand, if you want to create a 4:5 tuplet, the process in Musescore is horrendous and the end result is a logical mess, because the person who spent his free time implementing tuplets was only interested in the special case where the total duration of the tuplet fits into a single note value - well, that's good enough for triplets, and nobody wants anything more complicated than that, do they ;)

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by srh » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:15 am

The problem with this subject: even the great editors think figured bass (basso continuo) is a kind of old fashioned decoration of the score. It is essential for the Maestro al Cembalo who has to read these figures that are already very small like in Bärenreiter Neue Bach Edition and many other editors who think this is an 18th century tradition nobody uses. NO, all continuo players use this!
Believe me: putting figures is not like putting text under a note, there are rhythmical options under a note, a lot of augmented and diminished symbols etc.!
Please Daniel Spreadbury, make this the first important update, even if not perfect! I can tell you many people in the baroque music world will use Dorico then!
Last edited by srh on Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by srh » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:23 am

lumortensen wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:15 pm
Dear K_B,

"If one thing can also mean the opposite - depending on its context."

Ah yes, that is exactly how music notation also functions! Like language!

""""""""
Thanks for your kind words! I have recently begun migrating to Dorico from Ss and am still working hard to come to terms with its completelly different concept, using a collection of Weckmann-sonates and an act of a Rameau opera as testcases. I have a long way to go still, but I am convinced that with this migration I am (as a 62 year-old) part of the future!
Early Music does indeed contain its own millions of conventions of notation, which may often seem difficult to "translate" into modern use. But I feel that Dorico is very well equipped for that.
If one wants to extend this conversation, probably a new thread is the best place for that general subject, so let's stick to the "Figurato"-theme here. I have no idea how far Dorico's own work on this subject progresses (or even if my thoughts below are relevant), but I have pondered a bit further this morning about specialized FB-requirements (the list below is probably not exhaustive!):

Concept
FB-behaviour must be related to lyrics behaviout, but NOT imitate it (more than one "syllable" per note, dash must not advance caret at input and vertical placement must be editable better than using lyric-type baselines (not bass-lines....)

Figures available:
Came up with more than 20 possible modifications of each basic "number"! Some of these are probably not necessary, but generally available should be (most of) the following:

Numbers:
1-14 (the present Figurato-limit of 12 is sufficient for everything except late 16th/early 17thC-stuff)

Modifiers:
A) Accidentals (flat, natural, sharp and x (modern double-sharp looks best in Figurato, but possibly also the letter x) before or after number
"+" before or after number
B) Dashes "/" and possibly "-" (which must be available as a separate character as well!) superimposed on number
C) Various special appearances of e.g. 4,5,6,7 with the "+" integrated into the number (Figurato already has some of those)
D) Brackets (round or square, ditto)
E) Lines (not "-"). Probably the present lyric-like Space-Key-function, with or without a number as "placeholder" in all stacks and with line placement editable
F) (Too luxurious?): The possibility of smaller-font "x", double sharp or letter, before or after a note (baseline and superscript)

Input:
A) A consistent figure-input method for all of the above. The present Figurato-state, where two different inputs (e.g. 5+ and 5/) produce the same figure, is understandable, but not ideal.
B) Several figures per note must be automatically possible, so input must probably be based on the rhythmic grid.
C) Arrow keys (or something, NOT dash) must advance the caret.

Engraving:
A) Vertical placement MUST be editable and not anchored to base-lines. The present (understandable) anchoring to a baseline per system is not flexible enough.
A1) Sometimes various combinations of modifiers (eg. natural and flat) in different layers cause unpredictable collisions. Consequently each "stack" must be editable, and/or it must be straightforward to input several independent figures per "FB-event".
B) Horizontal placement. With figures in more-than-one line this is THE developer's nightmare! I don't think one can make a catch-all-solution, but with these engraving possibilities in place at least the user has the freedom to "nerd".

Playback:
Don't bother!
very much agree!

This is getting more than long enough! Have a happy weekend,
Lars Ulrik
Netherlands Bach Society, MacBook pro touchbar 2017, MuseScore

lumortensen
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:55 am

Dear Siebe,

The simple answer to your question "Why is it taking so long?" is:
Because the Dorico development team gives other elements of music notation a higher priority.

In our own estimation, we BC-connaisseurs are a specialized and passionate community expecting our very complex needs to be met on the level of sophistication which we are by now used to in Dorico!
But generally considering the plans for the "roadmap" of future Dorico-development (evident from this forum, Daniel's blogs etc), it is clear that we are not the only ones with such special needs! And isn't it kinda positive that Dorico does NOT in general attempt to implement "not perfect" solutions, as you request below? That, I think, would be much easier to criticize.........
The problem with this subject: even the great editors think figured bass (basso continuo) is a kind of old fashioned decoration of the score. Bo, it is essential for the Maestro al cembalo who has to read these figures that are already very small like in Bärenreiter Neue Bach Edition and many other editors who think this is an 18th century tradition nobody uses. NO, all continuo players uses this!
It is like making the program make music notation with myth but the note heads you have to do with an external program. Believe me: putting figures is not like putting text under a noe, there are rhythmical options under a note, a lot of augmented and diminished symbols etc.!
Please Daniel Spreadbury, make this the first important update, even if not perfect! I can tell you many people in the baroque music world will use Dorico then!
I fully agree with Marc above that there are valid alternatives to FB already available (playing techniques, Figurato - which I am using and which has undergone interesting developments lately....) which I would not even call "workarounds".

I am not sure that I understand correctly all your points above, but different fontsizes, rhythmical placement and the range of symbols in my experience are already manageable (Figurato being lyric-based still limits vertical adjustments......). But could you maybe give us some situations which cannot be solved with either PT's or Figurato?

Merry Xmas,
Lars Ulrik

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by fkretlow » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:27 pm

lumortensen wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:55 am
Figurato being lyric-based still limits vertical adjustments...
Yes, that’s why I occasionally use Figurato in text objects or playing techniques too.

As long as there’s no convenient way to create extender lines for figured bass I would still call all of this a workaround.

By the way, some good news: The Qt developers have fixed the positioning bug on Mac. The full version of Figurato will be usable with the Mac version of Dorico once the next major update arrives.

Interestingly, although Sibelius is built upon Qt too, Figurato is fully compatible with Sibelius 2018.11 which was released only a few days after Dorico 2.2.
Florian

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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by srh » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:56 pm

lumortensen wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:55 am
Dear Siebe,

The simple answer to your question "Why is it taking so long?" is:
Because the Dorico development team gives other elements of music notation a higher priority.

In our own estimation, we BC-connaisseurs are a specialized and passionate community expecting our very complex needs to be met on the level of sophistication which we are by now used to in Dorico!
But generally considering the plans for the "roadmap" of future Dorico-development (evident from this forum, Daniel's blogs etc), it is clear that we are not the only ones with such special needs! And isn't it kinda positive that Dorico does NOT in general attempt to implement "not perfect" solutions, as you request below? That, I think, would be much easier to criticize.........
The problem with this subject: even the great editors think figured bass (basso continuo) is a kind of old fashioned decoration of the score. Bo, it is essential for the Maestro al cembalo who has to read these figures that are already very small like in Bärenreiter Neue Bach Edition and many other editors who think this is an 18th century tradition nobody uses. NO, all continuo players uses this!
It is like making the program make music notation with myth but the note heads you have to do with an external program. Believe me: putting figures is not like putting text under a noe, there are rhythmical options under a note, a lot of augmented and diminished symbols etc.!
Please Daniel Spreadbury, make this the first important update, even if not perfect! I can tell you many people in the baroque music world will use Dorico then!
I fully agree with Marc above that there are valid alternatives to FB already available (playing techniques, Figurato - which I am using and which has undergone interesting developments lately....) which I would not even call "workarounds".

I am not sure that I understand correctly all your points above, but different fontsizes, rhythmical placement and the range of symbols in my experience are already manageable (Figurato being lyric-based still limits vertical adjustments......). But could you maybe give us some situations which cannot be solved with either PT's or Figurato?



Merry Xmas,
Lars Ulrik
Dear Lars Ulrik,

I am afraid I cannot spend too much time on it as we are going to move on Feb 1, I am just checking from time to time if there is a progress on FB side with Dorico. I made my Leonhardt/Bach edition with Musescore as you know I think but no FB! When I have time again I come back to Dorico which has all the potential!

Merry Xmass,

Siebe
Netherlands Bach Society, MacBook pro touchbar 2017, MuseScore

lumortensen
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Re: Bring on that sweet figured bass!

Post by lumortensen » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:34 am

Yes, please return! And happy move!
Lars Ulrik

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