“Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

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albert0984
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“Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by albert0984 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:54 pm

Hey there!
How can I type this kind of “Double” Cut Common Time inside Dorico (see the attached image)? Dorico, by default, places a 2/2 time signature instead of a 2/1 one, which is what I want.

Thanks!
Albert.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:08 am

I'm afraid Dorico can't show a cut common time signature for it to mean 2/1; it can only mean 2/2. I've not come across the use of that sign to mean anything other than 2/2 before. What composer/publisher/historical period are you working on?

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Michael Haslam » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:34 am

The image in the first post is from ClavierÜbung III by JS Bach, I think. Dorico should not only be able to do that but should also be able to do CC as in the Bach Fuge in Ab minor. I’m not sure where it means 4/4 + 4/4 or 4/2 but it’s 8 crotchets in a bar.

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by albert0984 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:19 am

Yes, Michael, you’re right.

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by njfreestone » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:08 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:I'm afraid Dorico can't show a cut common time signature for it to mean 2/1; it can only mean 2/2. I've not come across the use of that sign to mean anything other than 2/2 before. What composer/publisher/historical period are you working on?
It's also quite frequent for renaissance choral music by e.g. Palestrina or Byrd to have cut-common for 2/1. It would be brilliant if this could somehow be supported in due course.
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:22 pm

I guess we could add an engraving option to show 2/1 using the cut common symbol at some point. I'll make a note of it.

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Michael Haslam » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:22 am

Here’s the Brahms CC:
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by david-p » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:08 am

C with a line through it has a more varied use in Renaissance music and its use in 4/2 is by no means unusual.

The work around for this in S----ius is to create the piece with a 4/2 time signature and then replace the 4/2 by C with a line, at the same time deselecting "Rewrite bars up to next time signature". Does Dorico not have an equivalent?

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:14 pm

No, Dorico doesn't have a means of inserting a time signature without changing the subsequent bars. You'd actually have to do it in reverse, that is to say, add the cut common time signature, and then delete every other barline.

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by albert0984 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:22 pm

A work around I just found to write this in Dorico is the following:

1st: Set the time signature to Cut Common Time.
2nd: At measure 3, set the time signature to 4/2 (or 2/1), and hide it.
3rd: Delete the bar between measures 1 and 2.
4th: Here you have it! (see the attached image)

It works fine, but the first silences that appear are whole note silences, not double ones.

Hope it helps!
Albert.
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by steveparker » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:07 pm

I use 'display signature as..' in an alternative program all the time. It is actually quite useful to be able to change to say 4/4 but displayed as 3/4.

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by benwiggy » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Yes, Cut C is used extensively in Baroque music for 4/2. In fact, the B minor mass uses it so frequently that it uses a "cut 2" signature to distinguish 2/2 (U+EC85 in Smufl!).

Finale can set one time sig and display another, which is a very useful thing.
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by PJM » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:37 pm

I transcribe a lot of 18th century English and American Psalmody which often use retorted time signatures ie. reversed C or cut C time signatures. I haven't found a way of doing this. Any ideas?
Is there any way of putting a double bar line at the end of a system with a start repeat bar at the beginning of the next? One seems to cancel out the other.
When can we expect 1st and 2nd time lines?

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:11 pm

You can create a reversed time signature using Shift+X text: choose the 'Music text' character style at the top right of the popover, then copy and paste the relevant character from here.

At the moment you cannot, as you have found, show a double barline at the end of one system and a start repeat barline at the start of the next, but we intend to make this happen automatically in the relatively near future.

We expect first and second endings to be included in some basic form in the next update, though we have not yet started the implementation work on them.

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by PJM » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:25 pm

Thanks for your reply, Daniel. I have found the reversed time signatures, but I can't find a way to replace the usual time sig. with them. Is there a way of hiding the time signature without deleting a space? I like this facet of Dorico, but in this case it would be useful to have the space. I have tried making the first bar a 5/4 bar and hiding time sig and crochet rest, which worked with a new project but I couldn't replicate it in an existing one.

I like working with Dorico and I'm sure various oddities will get ironed out eventually. I particularly like Bravura - I have used it with both Sibelius and Lilypond. It's brought me full circle as I used Notaset when I started working in the early 70's. Is there a competition for the oldest Dorico user?

One other strange thing - when I have Dorico open it stops my screen saver from working. Has anyone else found this?

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:34 pm

I'm afraid you can't currently hide the time signature and leave the space behind. It will be possible to adjust the rhythmic spacing in the next update, which will allow you to make the necessary space.

Dorico may well prevent your screensaver from kicking in because the audio engine keeps your computer in a high state of alert, so that it's ready to start making noises the moment you click on anything in the music. We may well add an idle state that will kick in after a certain period of inactivity in the future, which would allow your computer to relax a bit if you're not using Dorico for a while.

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by PJM » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:29 pm

Thank you, Daniel. I await the next update with high expectations!

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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by bobmusic » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:59 pm

Here is an example from Schubert for double cut common time;
Schubert Impromptu Op. 90 No.3 Andante.png
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by benwiggy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:16 pm

As this old thread has been dredged up, it's worth pointing out that if you use a time sig of 4/2 and click on "Common/Cut" in the Properties pane, you will get a Cut C symbol. Since Dorico 2, at least.
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:31 pm

Schubert's own MS of Op 90 No 3 is slightly amusing, given the edition that bobmusic attached.

He presumably had second (or third) thoughts, but there was only one clef left at the end :)
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by bobmusic » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:47 pm

Hi Rob, for the record, it was not Schubert himself who wrote the note and changes!
Here's a quote from the critical notes in the Wiener Urtext Edition:
No.3 G flat major
The Aut. has the following note in another hand (Diabelli?): "Im ganzen Takt und in G-Dur zu schreiben! ("To be written in whole measures and in G-major"). The second alla breve marking was crossed out and new bars were drawn through the middle of the first four measures. The posthumous version in G major greatly disturbs the tonal balance between the Impromptus...
PS: what a mess :o
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by CarloGesualdo » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:33 am

The description of Schubert's use of alla breve (cut common really rankles with me) is interesting.
Nevertheless, my interest is mensural notation and the ability to use alla breve and common time as forms of imperfect tempi such that I would like to have more than just the option to have alla breve for 4/2. There are times when I would like 'common time' for 4/2 in the transcription of Renaissance music. It's a shame this isn't a 'cycled' choice rather than an on/off switch.
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by PjotrB » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:07 am

I also came across 'common' C for 4/2, in Schütz. There was a workaround, of course, but a native option would've been nice.
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Re: “Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Post by benwiggy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:09 am

CarloGesualdo wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:33 am
There are times when I would like 'common time' for 4/2 in the transcription of Renaissance music.
To have C meaning 4/2, use a pick-up bar with 8 beats in it: Type C,8 in the popover. Then place a hidden 4/2 in the following bar.

Image

This method lets you use any displayed signature with any actual metre, e.g. displayed 3/2 for 3/1, etc. Also note that checking the Cut time box for any /2 metre (e.g. 8/2, 6/2, 12/2) will display a Cut C.
PjotrB wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:07 am
There was a workaround, of course, but a native option would've been nice.
I don't consider this a workaround. Any method is going to involve telling Dorico which metre you want to use and which to display. This is about as simple as it can be.
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