Integration with Cubase

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:25 pm

Peter Roos wrote: That looks pretty cool, but if you drill a bit deeper, there are two major things missing:

1. There is no automatic synchronization of the midi information between the scoring program, and the DAW program.
2. More importantly, and this is really a deal breaker, while the midi is sent to Studio One, apparently there is no way to control any parameters like dynamics / expression / technique, even with a simple script.
Yes. I found the initial marketing materials a bit misleading. They certainly implied a tighter integration than is actually being delivered.

With the Presonus solution, you can do a one-time transfer from StudioOne to Notion, or you can do a one-time transfer from Notion to StudioOne in a fairly seamless way. But from that point onward there is no synchronization, so you really cannot work in most platforms at the same point in the work flow.

In essence, this is just an easier way to export MIDI from the notation program and import it into the DAW. (or vice versa). That's good, but far from the ultimate goal. I do believe that the Presonus people are aware of the power that will come from a fully integrated solution with real time synchronization and will keep working in that direction. They are supporting MIDI over Rewire, which is nice. The reality is that Notion still has some significant weaknesses. In another year or two, I would not be surprised to see Notion up to a "professional copyist" standard (not as strong as notation in Finale, SIbelius, or Dorico, but adequate for most professional notation jobs) and a tighter integration with StudioOne. If so, that will be the most attractive product for a significant slice of the market if nobody else delivers the DAW integration.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by jorisdeman » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:25 am

It's probably to early to say how the integration will be, but since they started from the ground up I can't imagine that they've not thought out a plan of how the two might integrate.

TBH, I don't see the point of having Dorico inside Cubase or Nuendo; it would add more bloat, development time and increase chances of bugs and instead a symbiotic link between the two would imho be the preferred option.

If there was a bi-directional link where changing a note/item in Cubendo would do the same in Dorico, and vice versa, with a way of assigning instruments and targets inside Cubendo, you'd be there most of the way.
With instantaneous updates between the two, you could run them side by side and have the benefit of both.

The single window design could also mean Dorico could potentially run as a VST3 plug-in inside Cubendo, sharing the audio engine and allowing instant mixdowns from Dorico if wanted.
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Re: Integration with Cubase --- Just a hope

Post by Alberto Maria » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:13 am

Well, Ok, Communication is different from Integration. There is Xml, obviously, rewire, or more efficient communications, but Integrations is another thing.

Obviously it's a very long way, that can or cannot be followed to reach the end.

For me it's just a hope for now ;)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by David Tee » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:10 pm

jorisdeman wrote:It's probably to early to say how the integration will be, but since they started from the ground up I can't imagine that they've not thought out a plan of how the two might integrate.

TBH, I don't see the point of having Dorico inside Cubase or Nuendo; it would add more bloat, development time and increase chances of bugs and instead a symbiotic link between the two would imho be the preferred option.

If there was a bi-directional link where changing a note/item in Cubendo would do the same in Dorico, and vice versa, with a way of assigning instruments and targets inside Cubendo, you'd be there most of the way.
With instantaneous updates between the two, you could run them side by side and have the benefit of both.

The single window design could also mean Dorico could potentially run as a VST3 plug-in inside Cubendo, sharing the audio engine and allowing instant mixdowns from Dorico if wanted.
Cubendo - LOL

What would be the point? Both programs ultimately serve different needs and reach different markets. If Steinberg are smart (and I think they are), they'll add to and emphasise those differences rather prioritise bridging the gap between them.

There definitely can be a need for the two programs to link up seamlessly but I'm guessing that more often than not, there won't be. Most Cubase users won't require their work notated professionally and most Dorico users will probably be happy enough with the audio / midi editing capabilities that Dorico provides. But there are always awkward sods (I'm one), and for those Cubase users who would like to print out high standard scores of their work with a minimum of fuss and bother, and for those Dorico users who would like to polish up their work professionally (and potentially see the results reflected back in their score), I can see a definite need for well worked links between the two programs.

An interesting angle would be to bring entry-level (lite) aspects of one program into the other. I'm fully expecting to recognise a fair bit of Cubase's approach if not the actual processes in Dorico's articulations and editing capabilities. Hope so as learning another set of skills wouldn't exactly thrill me. And I would be astonished if Steinberg haven't considered a cut down version of Dorico as Cubase's score editor at some point in the future. A taster of both is a good way to show users the range that Steinberg programs cover and a good way to sell more copies...

* * * * * * * * *

Just a quick note to Daniel and the team wishing them well as the home straight beckons. I'd imagine the pizza delivery boy is wearing a hole in the carpet...
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:47 am

David Tee wrote:What would be the point? Both programs ultimately serve different needs and reach different markets.
Well David, I think there are quite a few of us who say that was the state of play in 1995, but in today's world there are many people who need to have their feet in both worlds (notation and production). And the point of integration is to get to the final product more quickly and face less rigid constraints throughout the creative process.

Personally, my inspiration comes when how the work SOUNDS. I am not terribly effective just looking at a bunch of notes on a screen. I need to HEAR the work taking shape. And when I have it to a certain point, I want to share that with others in the most polished form I can spare the time to produce.

In the niche where I work most often (big band jazz) it has become almost universal that any arrangement will either have a live recording by a professional band or else a very realistic-sounding computer rendering. In 100% of those later cases, it is necessary to move into the DAW realm. The notation programs can only get you 40% there in the best case. And lacking the integration discussed above, the work flow necessarily involves entirely completing the composition job, then moving everything over to the DAW for production. I would much rather work on both planes simultaneously.

This will happen. Presonus is onto this path now and I believe they understand the power that comes from the next level of integration. I would hope that Yamaha/Steinberg, of all companies, would also recognize this. My frame of reference is composition in the notation program. Many people have exactly the opposite work flow. That is, if the composer is most effective composing within the DAW, there are many cases where the end product must include professionally notated scores. For these folks, it is an exact mirror image of my work flow, with the same integration needs.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:23 am

I agree with cparmerlee.

May be that persons who sit in front of Nuendo and Dorico are different musicians with different needs, even if Nuendo, with NEK, has Score. But in front of Cubase and Dorico there are often the same guys! Film composers, teachers, conductors, players; in a word musicians. In front of them, music is what needs to be. Not always obviously, but quite often.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Mike Dunn » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:46 am

Alberto Maria wrote:I agree with cparmerlee.

May be that persons who sit in front of Nuendo and Dorico are different musicians with different needs, even if Nuendo, with NEK, has Score. But in front of Cubase and Dorico there are often the same guys! Film composers, teachers, conductors, players; in a word musicians. In front of them, music is what needs to be. Not always obviously, but quite often.
I could not agree more with these last two posts. The world of music composition and production is changing very quickly and the lines between different disciplines in the industry are blurring. However I am sure Daniel and his team realize this, which is part of their motivation for starting an app like Dorico from the ground up; to cater for 21st Century needs. It's not easy, but be patient folks and have faith. Call me an optimist, but I am convinced this application, given time, will mark a turning point in the history of modern music composition and arrangement. :twisted:
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by teacue » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:20 pm

Since decades I am one of those who produce music in Cubase and afterwords creates scores in Finale.
The best integration for this particular task has always been for me a small but very usefull function of Cubase Score editor: "Scores Notes to MIDI"

Anyone who has used the Cubase Score Editor will know how easy and fast it is, without editing a single midi note, to get a notation friendly look in the score editor (of course I am only talking about the notes quantizing).
You just have to tweak a little the Display Quantize settings and the Interpretation Options to very fast get an accurate Notation. After doing this a simple click calling the function "Scores Notes to MIDI" transform the notes so that when they are imported into Finale they look exactly the same as in Cubase.
Very important is that you can do this for a whole track but also for a part only.
So this function is usefull even if you have very different notes resolution within a track.
It has always been the best and fastest way for me to export my work from Cubase to Finale.
I must say that at each new Cubase update I pray that the developpers do not ommit this little but very usefull feature ;)

I am aware that producing music first and then creating scores may not be the usual way for all composers, but I am sure many have to work this way.
So the possible integration of Dorico with Cubase is surely important to a lot of Musicians/Composers.

The kind of integration I would really love to see between both programs is a similarity for doing the same tasks.
For example the navigation functions through a score as well as the ability to reach a particular bar should be IMHO the same or at least as good as in Cubase.
I really love the transport bar in Cubase!
I find the concept of the left and right locators separated from the position locator very efficient.
I really appreciate how fast you can program the locators and how fast you can use them.
Also the fact that you can reach every bar without touching the mouse is an essential feature for me.
I really hate the way one has to navigate in Finale (as well as in some other Daws that I sometimes have to use!)

There is also a function that I love in Cubase Score: the easiness to select notes!
You can simply draw a rectangle on the screen and each note in this rectangle will be selected even if they are in different staffs or in distant bars!
Try to do this in Finale! It's impossible.
And I can assure you that there can be a lot of situations where this is very usefull.

It already seems as if Midi Editing in Dorico will have great similarities to Midi Editing in Cubase.
I hope it will be as great as in the Cubase List Editor.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Bob Morabito » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:08 pm

teacue wrote:
The kind of integration I would really love to see between both programs is a similarity for doing the same tasks.
For example the navigation functions through a score as well as the ability to reach a particular bar should be IMHO the same or at least as good as in Cubase.
I really love the transport bar in Cubase!
I find the concept of the left and right locators separated from the position locator very efficient.
I really appreciate how fast you can program the locators and how fast you can use them.
Also the fact that you can reach every bar without touching the mouse is an essential feature for me.
I really hate the way one has to navigate in Finale (as well as in some other Daws that I sometimes have to use!)
Please see--I hope this helps:

viewtopic.php?f=246&t=101660
Re: Transport toolbar

Postby Paul Walmsley » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:56 pm

We have several playback functions already:
- play from the current position (the 'play head'),
- play from the selection,
- play from the last place you started playback from,
- play from the start of the current flow and
- play from the start of the score

Hopefully that should give you a few options...
Re: Transport toolbar

Postby PaulWalmsley » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:37 pm

In the main toolbar we have just one button for playback. I think the default behaviour is that it plays from the current playhead position. This is consistent with behaviour in most DAWs. In the separate transport window there are space for more buttons and we have two playback controls on there, however I can't remember which functions we assigned to them. However you can bind keyboard shortcuts to any of these functions.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by teacue » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:17 pm

Bob Morabito wrote: Please see--I hope this helps:
viewtopic.php?f=246&t=101660
Thanks.
I am aware of this thread but I did not see anything mentioning Locators.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by TheMaestro » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:41 pm

teacue wrote:Since decades I am one of those who produce music in Cubase and afterwords creates scores in Finale.
... calling the function "Scores Notes to MIDI" transform the notes so that when they are imported into Finale they look exactly the same as in Cubase.
Was it really necessary to go all this trouble when you are fortunate to have this professional scoring program inside your DAW ?
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by teacue » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:49 pm

TheMaestro wrote:
teacue wrote:Since decades I am one of those who produce music in Cubase and afterwords creates scores in Finale.
... calling the function "Scores Notes to MIDI" transform the notes so that when they are imported into Finale they look exactly the same as in Cubase.
Was it really necessary to go all this trouble when you are fortunate to have this professional scoring program inside your DAW ?
Hi,
I am not sure if you are joking or if you are serious!
In case you are serious then I can only say I would really not compare Cubase Score and Finale.
I am also not sure if Steinberg itself would consider the Score ability of Cubase as professional.
I have to create orchestral material for Musicals (scores and parts) and I can get very good results with Finale.
I am not able to achieve such results with Cubase score.
As I wrote that the imported notes in Finale look exactly the same as in Cubase I was talking about the raw notes and not about any kind of layout of course.

And though I am quite lucky with Finale, I am curious to see what Dorico will bring, as the described efforts made by the Dorico team seem to be very impressive.
But I suppose that it will take some time after the first release and some further releases until Dorico can reach the level of Finale.

In case you were joking, well then ... forget my answer ;)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:04 pm

TheMaestro wrote:Was it really necessary to go all this trouble when you are fortunate to have this professional scoring program inside your DAW ?
Having a good tool inside my DAW doesn't mean I cannot need and whish a better one (inside my DAW)... ;)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Robby Poole » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:36 pm

As someone who has done a little bit of recording in a DAW (recording myself playing several parts independently, and creating a "complete" recording) and practically zero work with MIDI in a DAW, can someone please explain to me what is truly meant by "Integration" with Cubase.

I am not sure what the exact limits on a DAW are, when it comes to MIDI. So I am not sure how or what integration would like. And I am even less aware of how this method of working can be a bonus for the user. I guess I am curious as someone who can see myself in the next few months to years making more professional recordings of music I write or arrange in Dorico.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Mike Dunn » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:33 pm

teacue wrote: The best integration for this particular task has always been for me a small but very usefull function of Cubase Score editor: "Scores Notes to MIDI"
Thank you so much for flagging up this feature, I did not know of it and it makes a big difference in exporting midi files to Sibelius, and will be equally useful for exporting to Dorico when it's finished. XML exports never worked well from Nuendo to Sibelius for me. You just sped up my workflow massively :D Thanks again teacue
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by TheMaestro » Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:18 pm

Ok, too much misinformation and falsehood in this thread about Cubase Score Editor.

Just to make things clear ...

You'll find attached a score example that I quickly made especially for those who denigrates this program in this thread.

If you still pretend that this software is not professional :
1 - you have no idea what you're talking about
or
2 - you don't know how to use it

otherwise, I'm sorry, but you are of bad faith.

Quite impressive what a "(crappy) load of old tripe" can achieve ! ;)

Take a look ...
(I modified all the pitches to avoid problems with the copyright)


And ... the best thing about this score is that very few things are just "graphics".
Excepted the tempo "poco rall" and "a tempo", all the indications and expressions are really performed through Expression Map. I leave you to imagine what happens when I hit the Play button !
Of course you also have playback functions in other programs too but needless to say that there is no comparison with the possibilities of Cubase audio engine.

I'm not trying to say that The Score Editor is better than a particular software. It is far from perfect and would need a lot of improvements.
Finale or Sibelius are of course a better solution for music engravers etc ...

But, for others, musicians, composers, film composers etc. and especially here, in the Steinberg forum, when I often read : "I compose in Cubase/Nuendo and export to Finale for the score...", I just wanted to let them know that it's possible to get the same professional results within their DAW.

It's not "necessary" to export your MIDI data from Cubase to achieve your score in Finale or Sibelius, excepted, of course, if you really prefer to work with those programs instead.

And last, in saying Cubase Score Editor is crap !! well, first you are spreading false information, and secondly you insult Mr Michaelis (and his team) and years of work for his great software, in his own forums !
Attachments
ScoreExample_CubaseScoreEditor_webview.png
Cubase Pro 8 Score Editor example
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Peter Roos » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:56 pm

Robby Poole wrote:As someone who has done a little bit of recording in a DAW (recording myself playing several parts independently, and creating a "complete" recording) and practically zero work with MIDI in a DAW, can someone please explain to me what is truly meant by "Integration" with Cubase.

I am not sure what the exact limits on a DAW are, when it comes to MIDI. So I am not sure how or what integration would like. And I am even less aware of how this method of working can be a bonus for the user. I guess I am curious as someone who can see myself in the next few months to years making more professional recordings of music I write or arrange in Dorico.

Robby
Hi Robby:

"Integration with Cubase" will have a different meaning to different users; for me, it means the ability to tweak the midi notes by altering or adding the note velocities, expression, mod wheel, and so on and so forth, the purpose being to make it sound as if the virtual instrument is being played live, by a human being, rather than by a computer.

In the film music world it is customary to create a "mock-up" of a score, which is then presented to the director / producers for approval. Once it is approved, it then goes to the orchestrators / copyists to prepare for a recording session with orchestra (assuming there is a budget for this; otherwise the mock-up goes straight into the final soundtrack).

Creating this mock-up is a lot of work, with endless tweaking and tinkering of notes etc., all to make it sound convincing. There are people in Hollywood who make a living doing just this, sometimes referred to as "programmers". The state of the art of virtual instruments is now so sophisticated that with enough effort and skill, it can be hard to tell the difference between a live recording and a very good mock-up (to the untrained ear, at least). And the DAW programs are so sophisticated, there is virtually no limit other than time as to what you can do.

Up until now notation and midi-mockups are two different worlds, with little integration. What "integration" would mean to me is the ability to do everything inside of one program, in this instance, Dorico. So you can start writing a score in notation (maybe preceded by a sketch with pencil and paper), and keep working on it, while at the same time you can have playback using your own virtual instruments, however you like it, in parallel. That way you can have a beautifully engraved score that can go straight to the scoring stage and have a midi mockup that sounds professional enough to convince a director.

There are now so many virtual instruments, and everyday new are put out in the market ... from Vienna to Eastwest, Spitfire, Garritan, Native Instruments, and so on and so forth, and everyone has their own preferences. It would be really nice if you would be able to use your personal choice of VSTs inside of Dorico and tweak the sound playback. Doesn't have to be super fancy, just a handful of parameters.

Now, how exactly this is achieved, depends on the architecture and technology of the program. Personally I would prefer to have everything under one hood. Doesn't have to be very fancy, just a handful of parameters would go a very long way, with the ability for users to create their own "maps" to tie things like dynamics / expression / technique, to the playback they desire (without too complicated scripting or programming).

But conceptually it might also be possible to have some kind of "integration with Cubase", such that the tweaking is done in Cubase (or Nuendo). But that requires that there is a seamless integration between Dorico and Cubase, so that if e.g. you enter notes in Dorico they are automatically copied over in Cubase where you can starting noodling around with midi. I don't know how that is possibly technically; I was under the impression that with the latest version of Notion, Notion 6, this was achieved, with their Studio One DAW, but apparently that is not the case.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by teacue » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:29 pm

Mike Dunn wrote:
teacue wrote: The best integration for this particular task has always been for me a small but very usefull function of Cubase Score editor: "Scores Notes to MIDI"
Thank you so much for flagging up this feature, I did not know of it and it makes a big difference in exporting midi files to Sibelius, and will be equally useful for exporting to Dorico when it's finished. XML exports never worked well from Nuendo to Sibelius for me. You just sped up my workflow massively :D Thanks again teacue
You're welcome ;)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by teacue » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:32 pm

TheMaestro wrote:Ok, too much misinformation and falsehood in this thread about Cubase Score Editor.
...
Quite impressive what a "(crappy) load of old tripe" can achieve ! ;)
...
I'm not trying to say that The Score Editor is better than a particular software. It is far from perfect and would need a lot of improvements.
Finale or Sibelius are of course a better solution for music engravers etc ...
...
And last, in saying Cubase Score Editor is crap !! well, first you are spreading false information, and secondly you insult Mr Michaelis (and his team) and years of work for his great software, in his own forums !
OH, your pic looks quite good indeed!
And you are right I should better update my opinion on the the Score Notation ability of Cubase.
It's really a long way from the dedicated notation program "Cubase Score" that I once used before I then used Finale.
So your message is "angekommen" as they say in Germany and I took notice of the great results that you are able to create with the Score Editor.

But please there is no need to be rude.
I surely did not use the word "crap" and I surely did not insult anyone.
Also I do not think that words like "falsehood" or "bad faith" are appropriate to describe my post.

You write yourself:
"Finale or Sibelius are of course a better solution for music engravers etc ..."
This opinion is quite common on music forums.
And I do believe that there must be some reason why Steinberg decided to invest in a new notation software like Dorico.
This added to my outdated personal experience with the Cubase Score Editor leaded me to express that "I would really not compare Cubase Score and Finale".

Best regards
Cubase Pro 10 - Dorico 3.0 - Finale 25 - Windows 10 Pro 64bit
teacuemusic (Musicals)
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Robby Poole
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Robby Poole » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:38 pm

Peter,

Thanks for the response. I can see why this could be vitally important for someone. I don't use Rewire, but I have heard about it, and how it works. If there was a way to have a "software bridge" between Dorico and Cubase (such as Rewire type thing) would that solve the issue? Where what is done in one program, is instantly updated in the other? And vice versa?

The word integration I guess is what throws me off in this thread. You can integrate something, where the item in question now becomes a sub-part of something bigger, or you can have integration, where 2 things can work seamlessly.

Robby
Dorico Pro 3
Finale (since v2.2), Sibelius (v1.2 through 7.3),
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:48 am

Peter Roos wrote:What "integration" would mean to me is the ability to do everything inside of one program, in this instance, Dorico.
That is certainly one path to a solution. However, this implies a WHOLE lot more DAW-like function in the notation program. For me, it is not just being able to tweak the MIDI and add controller info, and it is more than just having access to all the VSTis and VST effects. The DAW world also has extensive automation and bus routing. And it also has the ability to blend music from multiple sources.

For example, for a demo recording, I might want to go with a synthesis for all the band parts, but I might have a singer come in to record the vocal track. And I might route use a side-channel compressor to apply a "ducking" technique to make the vocal more present. And I might have a couple of reverb buses for blend and space. I might use automation during the sax solo to boost the volume a little above the dynamics in the score and also might automate a little chorusing of flanging on that solo to make it more present without being louder. All these things are way beyond what any notation program can do, as far as I know.

So for me, "integration" means a 2-way, real-time sharing of information between notation and DAW. If you add or adjust notes in the DAW, they should immediately be reflected in the notation program and vice versa.

Presonus has a static version of this now. That is, you can batch-send the entire score to the DAW or you can send the entire composition from the DAW to the notation program with basically one click. But you cannot continue to work on both platforms.
Dorico 2, Cubase 10.0, Windows 10, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 audio i/f
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Peter Roos » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:16 pm

Robby Poole wrote:Peter,

Thanks for the response. I can see why this could be vitally important for someone. I don't use Rewire, but I have heard about it, and how it works. If there was a way to have a "software bridge" between Dorico and Cubase (such as Rewire type thing) would that solve the issue? Where what is done in one program, is instantly updated in the other? And vice versa?

The word integration I guess is what throws me off in this thread. You can integrate something, where the item in question now becomes a sub-part of something bigger, or you can have integration, where 2 things can work seamlessly.

Robby
No, ReWire really does not do the trick, at least not for me. ReWire keeps the notation program and the DAW program in sync, but you still have to do the work twice, which is engraving in the notation program on one hand, and then tweaking the notes in the DAW program.

If I understand what Daniel has told about Dorico, it will do a much better job at "integration" than any of the other programs, by allowing users to work in any of several different environments, and going back and forth; from setting up to the score, to playback, to engraving, printing, etc.

To get pretty decent results you don't need a full-fledged DAW, the ability to tweak a few things (velocity, mod wheel, expression, maybe some simple volume automation per instrument) would go a long way already. Key is really how easy and user friendly everything is going to be (also on the note entry front), given the experience of Daniel and his team I am pretty sure they thought this all out carefully and came up with something very clever.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Peter Roos » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:19 pm

cparmerlee wrote:
Peter Roos wrote:What "integration" would mean to me is the ability to do everything inside of one program, in this instance, Dorico.
That is certainly one path to a solution. However, this implies a WHOLE lot more DAW-like function in the notation program. For me, it is not just being able to tweak the MIDI and add controller info, and it is more than just having access to all the VSTis and VST effects. The DAW world also has extensive automation and bus routing. And it also has the ability to blend music from multiple sources.

For example, for a demo recording, I might want to go with a synthesis for all the band parts, but I might have a singer come in to record the vocal track. And I might route use a side-channel compressor to apply a "ducking" technique to make the vocal more present. And I might have a couple of reverb buses for blend and space. I might use automation during the sax solo to boost the volume a little above the dynamics in the score and also might automate a little chorusing of flanging on that solo to make it more present without being louder. All these things are way beyond what any notation program can do, as far as I know.

So for me, "integration" means a 2-way, real-time sharing of information between notation and DAW. If you add or adjust notes in the DAW, they should immediately be reflected in the notation program and vice versa.

Presonus has a static version of this now. That is, you can batch-send the entire score to the DAW or you can send the entire composition from the DAW to the notation program with basically one click. But you cannot continue to work on both platforms.
Yeah, all this is pretty fancy and beyond what you can expect from a notation program. With live recordings I would always turn to a separate program like Cubase or Pro Tools and then record it there, and mix it in with whatever comes out of the scoring program.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by notator » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:53 pm

Hi,

I'd like to see a solution in which everyone can build on the experience they have with the programs they are used to using. Solutions are much more likely to be adopted if users are allowed build on their own experience. Trying to force proprietary solutions on users is a recipe for disaster.

In other words, what's needed is a universal, standard interface that can be used by both DAWS (e.g. Cubase) and notation programs (e.g. Dorico). Any notation editor (standard or otherwise) should be able to interface to any DAW.
I think it would be a mistake for Cubase and Dorico to try to define and use their own private interface, but there's nothing to stop them making better use of the information they are exchanging -- thus being better programs than the competition.

Over the past few years, I've been developing a file format that consists of MIDI information embedded in SVG. (I'm interested in producing scores that can be used interactively in web browsers [1] ). This format could be regarded as a prototype, or proof-of-concept, for such a universal interface. I am myself only really interested in a subset of standard music notation, but MIDI info could easily be embedded in SVG by any music notation editor (standard or otherwise) that already exports them separately.

In particular: if Dorico exported standard SVG-MIDI files, Cubase could use them (or snippets thereof) in its user interface. If the structure of the incoming SVG doesn't change, there's also nothing to stop Cubase exporting edited MIDI info back to Dorico inside that structure... where it can be saved...

But before that can happen, we need to have a standard way of embedding MIDI in SVG.
I think that such a standard could be defined in a year or two (not more) by a W3C WG having the necessary experience/expertise.

Any takers?

All the best,
James

[1] see: http://james-ingram-act-two.de/open-sou ... ormer.html

--
http://james-ingram-act-two.de
https://github.com/notator

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Mike Dunn » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:37 pm

Peter Roos wrote:
If I understand what Daniel has told about Dorico, it will do a much better job at "integration" than any of the other programs, by allowing users to work in any of several different environments, and going back and forth; from setting up to the score, to playback, to engraving, printing, etc.

To get pretty decent results you don't need a full-fledged DAW, the ability to tweak a few things (velocity, mod wheel, expression, maybe some simple volume automation per instrument) would go a long way already. Key is really how easy and user friendly everything is going to be (also on the note entry front), given the experience of Daniel and his team I am pretty sure they thought this all out carefully and came up with something very clever.
Do I understand this correctly, is there going to be an option in Dorico to edit in the equivalent of the Key Editor window in Nuendo/Cubase ? That would be well funky, for me at least, I work the other way round, ie I write in a DAW then port it all over to Sibelius (with much sweat and tears) - if there is a key editor in Dorico I could simply export/import MIDI files and tweak them in there (always midi notes written in a DAW 'have' to be in the 'wrong place' to sound natural, ie strings slightly before the beat etc which is a nightmare to tweak back to the right place). Brilliant ! :)
Dorico Pro 3, Nuendo 10, Intel i7, 32GIG RAM, Windows 10 pro 64bit, (2nd machine - Win10 64bit 6 Gig ram, VE Pro), (Also 3rd Machine - Windows Surface Pro for transcribing to Dorico, particularly), EWQLSQ, EWQLSO, VSL, VEPro, Sibelius 8.4, Kontakt, Absynth, Omnisphere 2, Trilian, Reaktor 6 etc etc.

http://www.mldunn.net

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